Job Discussion Forums

[positivity]

with due deference to Johnslat and his elk, (you mean ilk, surely? Ed.) who said that he was 'content' in Saudi, is there anyone else who is a few steps up the happiness ladder than the 'totally disenfranchised and disenchanted' rung?

OK, I haven't worked in Saudi or any ME country and I look forward to being shot down fairly rapidly, BUT how many of us can honestly say that educational establishments in the West all uniformly treat staff with due respect and support? Bad admin, ineffectual Heads of Dept., lack of resources, problems with pay/holiday/compassionate leave, un-professionalism of colleagues are rife in UK colleges and universities, if you listen to people who work in them.

The culture in the ME is SO different from what we know and love in the West, the only way to deal with it is to go with a blank slate, expect nothing, and nothing to work, and use your experience and higher consciousness (if you will) to rise above the issues you are faced with.

People are people, wherever in the world you are. It just takes a little time to get into their heads (i.e. go native)

My first job was in sales, because Maggie Thatch had destroyed manufacturing industry and research in the 80's so getting a job with a Chemistry degree was laughable. I still remember the advice my manager gave me - 'this place is full of seasoned salesmen. listen to them but be careful what you take on board. When they try to unscrew your head and fill it with *manure* that they've picked up over the years, then RUN AWAY; you have your own unique way of doing things and their experiences don't have to be your experiences.' bit Death-of-a-Salesman-ish but it got the point across -

It's all good information that I'm getting from this forum though, and it's all useful for carrying out thought experiments with.

[johnslat]

Dear positivity,
Actually, it's a mule deer rather than an elk, but since it's a large one, your confusion is understandable.
Most of my colleagues at the Institute of Public Administration seemed at least fairly content as their staying on for, in many cases, five, ten or more years would appear to indicate.
And although scot47 at KFUPM seems to have absented himself from this forum for a while, my impression is that he's content as well.
And, of course, there's Cleopatra.
Regards,
John (and the deer)

[destionable]

Dear Mr Positive:

My my Sire! You certainly have had quite a career. Isn't Maggy Thacher dead? Once I heard from a Brit. about the education system in the UK...that there are more people in psychiatric insitutions than in education institutions. Which one do you hail from?

Cheers
Destionable

[Never Ceased To Be Amazed]

And, it's not always the employer. John seems to have worked for quite a good one. So does Scot. I sub-contracted with some major western military contractors which virtually guaranteed me my "rights" if trouble developed.

A difference here. Scot works in the EP (Eastern Province) which is known for its easier-going lifestyle. Life is easier there. John and I mainly worked in riyadh. both of us for good companies that supported us. My major hang-up was the mutawwa and the way they treated the missus. John has a different life story and a heckofalotta more patience than I.

A lot of the posters here that you hear the most negative comments from have been done in by recruiters, which is NEVER the way to go. This is why you read DIRECT HIRE so many times.

DON'T GO FOR THE "GOLD". THERE IS NO MORE "GOLD" LEFT IN sAUDI ARABIA except for a few employers. And, those earning it are smart to keep their mouths shut.

People need to go to saudi with eyes wide open and realizing that you are not in "Kansas" anymore. Most of what you are used to in the West is negated in saudi. I'm glad to hear that some can retain their passports that I was never able to. But remember, a passport is worthless without an Exit Only or Exit/Re-entry visa.

Life is saudi is what you make of it. John did his 19. I did my 10. Scot seems to have been there forever...

NCTBA

[destionable]

Dear Never...

GOLD? I was told there is a lost old gold mine somewhere under the piles of sand in the Rub Al Khali. If anybody can get the GPS could they inform me?

Thanks
Destionable

[Never Ceased To Be Amazed]

Someone is misleading you. The rumour of which you speak is the mythical "Mountain of Gold" situated in the Northwestern sector of saudi...but we digress...

Read on... http://ldolphin.org/franz-sinai.html

NCTBA

[johnslat]

Dear NCTBA,
Too late - I found it and brought it back home with me (how do you think I can afford to live in Santa Fe - and why do you think I was so "content" over there?)
But I am reminded of yet another old saying:

"He that would bring home the gold of the Indies must take the gold of the Indies with him."

Regards,
John
P.S. And from "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre"

"I know what gold does to men's souls. Ah, as long as there's no find, the noble brotherhood will last but when the piles of gold begin to grow... that's when the trouble starts."

"Aah, gold's a devilish sort of thing, anyway. You start out, you tell yourself you'll be satisfied with 25,000 handsome smackers worth of it. So help me, Lord, and cross my heart. Fine resolution. After months of sweatin' yourself dizzy, and growin' short on provisions, and findin' nothin', you finally come down to 15,000, then ten. Finally, you say, "Lord, let me just find $5,000 worth and I'll never ask for anythin' more the rest of my life."
"$5,000 is a lot of money."
"Yeah, here in this joint it seems like a lot. But I tell you, if you was to make a real strike, you couldn't be dragged away. Not even the threat of miserable death would keep you from trying to add 10,000 more. Ten, you'd want to get twenty-five; twenty-five you'd want to get fifty; fifty, a hundred. Like roulette. One more turn, you know. Always one more."

Now does that seem appropriate or what?

[007]

[desultude]

Well, if I interpret your question hopefully not too cynically, it seems that you are asking if we are not just a bunch of malcontents where ever we go.

Please search my posts on the Korea board. You will find, over 4 years of a lot, I mean a lot, of posting, you will not find 1 (ONE) negative post by me about either Korea or the university I was working for. Not one. In fact, I was a great defender of the culture and the people, and of my university.

Teaching English has been great for me. I did teach Political Science at a few major universities in the States, and I am published in that field. At least one other poster here has had a career in law before switching to teaching abroad. We are professionals. I can say that about every one of the posters that I personally know on this board.

Saudi Arabia is a special case. It is an intrinsically hierarchical society based on nepotism. I mean nepotism and hierarchy are at the center of everything. The social and political cultures are inseparable and permeate all aspects of life. The westerners who become successful administrators here must have the ability (mentality) to adapt to this structure. It is a structure that demands "kick the dog" behavior. A lot of (most?) people are kicked from about and kicks those below.

If you are not at the bottom of the kicking (not a female, Philippina, Bangladeshi, etc.), you can get by with either sidestepping the structure of oppression or becoming part of it. Many people I know simply do their jobs, ignore the BS as much as possible, collect their paychecks and close their doors when they go home. If you do need the job and money, and have a very, very think skin, this can be a effective strategy for a while. I had a couple of male friends that were both honorable and upstanding, and able to countenance the day to day stuff (which they saw and understood, and did not deny behind a falsely positive attitude).

Others become a party to the system, find their niche in it and do their fair share of kicking the dog. In my opinion, this includes the two male administrators that I was the most directly answerable to. It takes arriving in Saudi with a particular psychology and temperament.

This is not the normal confusion, un-professionalism and chronyism that is present at almost institution. The Kingdom has its own pathology. Please don't think that the people who have taught there and write here about the difficulty of it are the losers and whiners. In fact, almost any woman I know who has had the cahones to go to the Kingdom to teach is among the strongest and most adventuresome I know.

[positivity]

Dear Destionable

There are plenty of people in the UK who WISH the old bat was dead, but Thatch continues to cling to this mortal coil. And the Tories insist on rolling her out on special occasions where die hard Thatcherites wax lyrical about the good old days of the Iron Lady. She's more like the Ironside Lady now.

As to the distribution of people between psychiatric and educational institutions, there's plenty who are in the wrong place. There's many a madman/woman (excuse the un-pc language)in charge of faculties/government departments/police forces, while there are plenty of people who hold views contrary to the status quo who are languishing in padded rooms..

[destionable]

Dear OO7:

You certainly are some weird cat!

Destionable

[spotz]

Well the way i see it is no body is completely happy with any job. I had more complains with my job back home in the states than i do here. My problems arent with the company that i work for the but the time it takes for the government processes to happen. Other than that i like my job. However i will not state where it is until after i leave

[Mia Xanthi]

[rigel]

I'm happy about 1/3 of the time. This is because I find myself working the following regular-as-clockwork schedule:

10 Sign a contract for one year. Work the year.
20 Re-sign for another year. Work the second year.
30 Not offered a third year. Get booted.
40 Be unemployed for a year while looking for another (good) job. Enjoy blissful life of sleeping in and drinking martinis.
50 Find a new job
GOTO Line 10

[Stephen Jones]

I'd say I'm pretty content where I am.