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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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 Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| SidGlickman wrote: |
| Glenski wrote: |
| SidGlickman wrote: |
| The only, seemingly sensible reply was from naturegirl321, who answered my concerns about age limitations. |
I beg your pardon! |
Okay, I apologize for that. (I shouldn't post late at night, while low on sleep.) You, Glenski, have provided accurate info. and answers. But my key question about the degree types has not been answered, and no I do not expect to come into an EFL gig in asia or the middle east and get a top uni. job. But from what I've seen on the job boards (at least for the middle east) is that a Masters of almost any sort (i.e. English, TESOL, Linguistics, etc.) and 2-3 yrs. teaching experience is enough to get a decent gig, and I did mention the middle east as well as asia.
I guess I'm frustrated at the lack of an answer to my original question:
"I'm considering doing an MA TESOL or an MA Linquistics. I'm leaning towards the latter.) I assume the MA Linguistics would provide me more flexibility, to teach not just ESL but basic English Lit. and/or Tech. Writing (My freshman English teacher had an MA Ling.). Is this assumption correct?"
My admittedly limited knowledge of these two degrees, is that the difference is indeed slim, due mostly to the selection of elective courses.
The job market really sucks here right now, but even in good times, many college teachers have to string together multiple part-time gigs, which I expect I'll probably have to do, especially starting out. (Within a 20 mi. radius of my house, there are at leat 6 comm. colleges.) I'm assuming an MA TESOL locks me into ESL teaching here, whereas an MA Linguistics provides me some flexibility to teach beginning English, writing, and/or ESL.
So my question again. Are those assumptions correct, or am I way off the mark?
Now, I think you and others got confused about me asking about teaching Eng. Lit and/or tech writing overseas, which was a reasonable misunderstanding, but I thought I cleared that up in a later post.
Thanks again. |
When you say you want to get a master's in linguistics, WHICH MASTERS IN LINGUISTICS are you talking about? For example, here's what the graduate program in linguistics at UC Santa Cruz offers: http://ling.ucsc.edu/graduate/. Here's what UC Davis says about its program: http://linguistics.ucdavis.edu/programs/masters/m-a-in-linguistics. Notice that they're quite different from each other. UCLA has an applied linguistics and related ESL degree (http://www.gdnet.ucla.edu/gasaa/majors/apltesl.html) and a linguistics degree (http://www.gdnet.ucla.edu/gasaa/majors/ling.html).
So, once again, which master's in linguistics are you talking about? At some universities, an MA in applied linguistics is what one would get (along with state teacher certification) if one were interested in teaching a foreign language (e.g. Spanish) in government indoctrination centers (public schools) in the US while an MA TESOL is what one would get (along with teacher certification) if one wanted to teach ESL in those same government indoctrination centers. There is also the option of a graduate certificate (which is not the same as a degree), such as this one at Purdue University: http://www.cla.purdue.edu/english/esl/certificate.html.
Teaching a language is not the same thing as teaching any other subject (such as technical writing or English literature or underwater basket-weaving) and you really do need some training and/or experience in teaching a language. My suggestion to you would be to consider doing some volunteer teaching through some private organization that gives ESL classes to immigrants. Then, if you're certain you want to get into teaching English to speakers of other languages in another country, go get your MA TESOL or an MA in applied linguistics (many of which programs are geared more toward ESL) or at least a graduate certificate in ESL (I think UCLA has one). You could do one of those four-week TEFL certification courses (CELTA/Trinity/SIT/generic) but they're a mere entry-level certification and you'd likely get more out of going the college route. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| SidGlickman wrote: |
| But my key question about the degree types has not been answered, and no I do not expect to come into an EFL gig in asia or the middle east and get a top uni. job. |
Ok, so that much is clear...
| Quote: |
| But from what I've seen on the job boards (at least for the middle east) is that a Masters of almost any sort (i.e. English, TESOL, Linguistics, etc.) and 2-3 yrs. teaching experience is enough to get a decent gig, and I did mention the middle east as well as asia. |
And, I'm only able to answer for Japan.
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| I guess I'm frustrated at the lack of an answer to my original question: |
Which I think you admitted was not clear in the first place, hence the frustrating and less than perfect responses so far.
| Quote: |
| "I'm considering doing an MA TESOL or an MA Linquistics. I'm leaning towards the latter.) I assume the MA Linguistics would provide me more flexibility, to teach not just ESL but basic English Lit. and/or Tech. Writing (My freshman English teacher had an MA Ling.). Is this assumption correct?" |
As for Japan, all one needs is a vanilla BA degree to get a proper work visa and teaching job on the lowest rung of the ladder. Vanilla means any major will do. Bottom rung = ALT or conversation school.
A freshly minted MA in Linguistics with no experience offers little advantage the first year or 2. You'll actually need that entry level experience to find a job here higher on the food chain. That means direct hire solo FT job (not ALT). After the first year in Japan, you can also "self-sponsor" your work visa by getting several PT jobs, including those in junior colleges or universities (although they are terribly competitive right now).
I realize some of your discussion involved teaching ESL in the USA first, but it has been difficult (or to use your own word, frustrating) to reply accurately to you when you mix your questions with talk of USA, UAE, and Asia. Just look at my answers in terms of situations in Japan, and that's all I can help you with.
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My admittedly limited knowledge of these two degrees, is that the difference is indeed slim, due mostly to the selection of elective courses.
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As for as the 2 degrees you described goes, either one will be satisfactory in Japan, but with the qualifiers I stated above and earlier.
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| The job market really sucks here right now, but even in good times, many college teachers have to string together multiple part-time gigs, |
Pretty much the norm in Japan, too. The major difference is that in the USA you don't have to worry about a work visa. Here, you do, and that means you can't start working in the country with only PT work. That won't sponsor a work visa.
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| I'm assuming an MA TESOL locks me into ESL teaching here, whereas an MA Linguistics provides me some flexibility to teach beginning English, writing, and/or ESL. |
In the States? I don't know. Here in Japan, maybe. Best answer I can give. It may be more a matter of your tech writing background that will help you land a job to teach writing, but reread my earlier posts, where I stated that you will find it hard to get a job teaching primarily such a topic. I'm at a science university, and although the administration is very keen on having undergrads and graduate students learn how to make scientific presentations in English, we have no courses in that, and the tech writing courses are few and far between. Moreover, students take too many lower level English courses like conversation, reading, or listening in their first year to "get the credits out of the way" instead of trying to prepare themselves for using English in their careers. Keep that strongly in mind wherever you go. Attitudes and motivation may not be what you expect!
I teach tech writing to 3rd year students in uni. They can barely string together coherent sentences or make simple ones. Their critical thinking skills are nearly nonexistent, and their logic in structuring a paragraph, let alone essay, is horrendous and vague. More to keep in mind.
Also, whoever you teach in the USA, foreign students usually need about 550 on TOEFL to get into universities. Not exactly a stellar score, and although their motivation to study abroad may be good, they will still need a LOT of help with very basic English, especially writing skills.
Teaching literature? Uh, not exactly something you should expect to make a lot of money on, nor to work FT at. You'll get a few interested students, depending on your reputation. My own wife took junior college courses in a literature major, studying mostly fairy tales. As I wrote earlier, think more about what you will have to teach most of the time: basic English conversation-related courses. |
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SidGlickman
Joined: 05 Aug 2009
Posts: 15
Location: Silicon Valley, USA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:21 am Post subject: |
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Alright, just want to apologize again for that post where I criticized some respondents to my OP. I've been under a lot of stress, being laid off and thinking about finances in a very expensive place to live (Silicon Valley).
I met an old college prof. of mine three days ago and he confirmed what I thought and what an earlier poster may have mentioned. Starting out to teach at junior/comm. colleges requires stringing together multiple part-time jobs; referred to as "freeway flyers" these are teachers trying to get their foot in the door for a perm. position, whether it's ESL, basic comp. & writing, history, etc.
At this point I'll probably abandon the MA and think about an ESL cert. (either a CELTA or something through the UC extension programs) in the next yr. or two. Then I can semi-retire to Thailand in 5-10 yrs, starting out at the "bottom rung" at maybe $800/ mo.
Thanks again for the insights and information and mostly confirming some of my suspicions. 
I think mods can go ahead and close this thread, unless anyone else wants to add something specific to the topic. |
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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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| Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| SidGlickman wrote: |
Alright, just want to apologize again for that post where I criticized some respondents to my OP. I've been under a lot of stress, being laid off and thinking about finances in a very expensive place to live (Silicon Valley).
I met an old college prof. of mine three days ago and he confirmed what I thought and what an earlier poster may have mentioned. Starting out to teach at junior/comm. colleges requires stringing together multiple part-time jobs; referred to as "freeway flyers" these are teachers trying to get their foot in the door for a perm. position, whether it's ESL, basic comp. & writing, history, etc.
At this point I'll probably abandon the MA and think about an ESL cert. (either a CELTA or something through the UC extension programs) in the next yr. or two. Then I can semi-retire to Thailand in 5-10 yrs, starting out at the "bottom rung" at maybe $800/ mo.
Thanks again for the insights and information and mostly confirming some of my suspicions.
I think mods can go ahead and close this thread, unless anyone else wants to add something specific to the topic. |
Some of the UC schools offer a graduate certificate in TESL (which is not quite the same thing as a master's degree in TESL) and might be worth considering. |
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SidGlickman
Joined: 05 Aug 2009
Posts: 15
Location: Silicon Valley, USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:26 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Chancellor. Yes, I'm going to a free intro seminar on UC Santa Cruz's TEFL cert. program in a couple of weeks.
Not sure if it's a "graduate certificate" or not; I think it's just a cert on the level of a CELTA. However, they do have an option to transfer the credits to U. of San Fran.'s MA Linguistics (if you so choose). But the cert courses look legit and include a teaching practicum at the end, so that's what really interests me.
At this point I'm going to try to struggle along to find another tech writing job in this crappy economy. At least for a few more months. The TEFL cert. will just give me the chance to "semi retire" and get out of the rat race here a little early (probably 5-10 years from now, instead of 20).
Thanks again for the suggestions. |
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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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SidGlickman
Joined: 05 Aug 2009
Posts: 15
Location: Silicon Valley, USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:20 am Post subject: |
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Yes Chancellor, that is the program I'm interested in and yes, I've enrolled in that first "course", which is really just a single session seminar to provide info on TEFL careers and this program in particular.
The interesting thing is, they have partnered with U. of San Francisco (USF) a pretty decent, private, Jesuit school. If you do their TESOL cert. then you can transfer the credits to the MA Linguistics at USF (assuming you get accepted) and get that degree on only one more yr. of full time schooling. (Not too sure about going down that path now though.)
I have a question though. What is the difference between a TESL cert. like CELTA, Trinity, or SIT and a "graduate certificate" like this one at UCSC. I assume it's due to the fact that some schools regard the courses as grad. level (i.e. USF in this case). With that being the case, is a graduate certificate looked upon more or less favourably in the job market, as compared to something like a CELTA?
Thanks again. |
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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| SidGlickman wrote: |
Yes Chancellor, that is the program I'm interested in and yes, I've enrolled in that first "course", which is really just a single session seminar to provide info on TEFL careers and this program in particular.
The interesting thing is, they have partnered with U. of San Francisco (USF) a pretty decent, private, Jesuit school. If you do their TESOL cert. then you can transfer the credits to the MA Linguistics at USF (assuming you get accepted) and get that degree on only one more yr. of full time schooling. (Not too sure about going down that path now though.)
I have a question though. What is the difference between a TESL cert. like CELTA, Trinity, or SIT and a "graduate certificate" like this one at UCSC. I assume it's due to the fact that some schools regard the courses as grad. level (i.e. USF in this case). With that being the case, is a graduate certificate looked upon more or less favourably in the job market, as compared to something like a CELTA?
Thanks again. |
The difference between a graduate certificate in TESL and an entry-level TEFL course like CELTA, Trinity, etc. is that the graduate certificate course is longer and more in depth (though many of these entry-level CELTA courses and the like are pretty intense). While some entry-level TEFL courses might give you a few credits toward a master's degree, you won't get anywhere near the credits you'll get pursuing a graduate certificate and the entry-level TEFL courses are not necessarily university courses in and of themselves. |
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SidGlickman
Joined: 05 Aug 2009
Posts: 15
Location: Silicon Valley, USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:14 am Post subject: |
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Thanks again for all the info so far Chancellor. But that brings me to another question. Almost all the TEFL openings I see advertised on the various job boards, if they're not asking for an MA are looking for BA/BS and the CELTA, Trinity, or SIT type of cert.
How would a certificate comprised of grad level courses from a place like UC stack up in a TEFL job application. The grad. cert. might get you further if you want to apply to an MA Linguistics and want to get some credit for some or all of the courses you took, but how would it stack up against something like a CELTA cert. in the "real world" of applying for TEFL jobs?
Thanks again. |
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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| SidGlickman wrote: |
Thanks again for all the info so far Chancellor. But that brings me to another question. Almost all the TEFL openings I see advertised on the various job boards, if they're not asking for an MA are looking for BA/BS and the CELTA, Trinity, or SIT type of cert.
How would a certificate comprised of grad level courses from a place like UC stack up in a TEFL job application. The grad. cert. might get you further if you want to apply to an MA Linguistics and want to get some credit for some or all of the courses you took, but how would it stack up against something like a CELTA cert. in the "real world" of applying for TEFL jobs?
Thanks again. |
They ask for the bachelor's degree (at minimum) often (or at least in part) because that's what you need just to work legally in the country. A graduate certificate is superior to a four-week certification course simply because there's more content but also because it's actual university course work (that CELTA is from Cambridge University doesn't mean much because the courses are taught in different places around the world by CELTA instructors and not at Cambridge University by Cambridge professors; likewise with Trinity College - if there is a CELTA course at Cambridge University or a Trinity course at Trinity College, it's still not the same as a graduate certificate). Keep in mind that a TEFL certificate like CELTA, Trinity, etc. is an entry-level certification - the minimum required - for most TEFL jobs (there are still some places that will hire just about any native speaker off the street without a certificate or a degree but those tend not to pay well and tend not to be very good places to work). Also keep in mind that whatever course you take, it must include the all-important supervised teaching practice with real ESL/EFL students. |
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