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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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 Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
Japanese parents pamper their kids. They also let them secrete themselves for hours in their rooms where they play video games or chat to friends via cell phones. Result: no social interaction face to face, and no social skills. Citizenship depends on social interaction.
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For me a decent citizen is simply a law abiding one. No social skills can make for a highly unlikeable character and annoyance in the work place, but that doesn't make them bad people.
A little pampering doesn't hurt... Drill sergents are quite often despised by their children despite their best intentions.
Although I don't think its a good thing that more and more kids are locking themselves up to play videogames or surf the internet, etc at least these kids aren't wondering the streets looking for something to do, which often leads to some form of badness.
And at the end of the day, I watched as all the kids freaked out themselves in the run up to report day. They were petrified that their parents would be disappointed with their results.
Plus the turn out at every parents day we've had (we had the 4th saturday before last) always leads to a full house. I went to one of my sister's parents days and was shocked by how few parents came to find out how their kids were doing with all of them claiming work or too busy eventhough it ran until 9pm. When I was at school, only a very small minority of the children didn't have at least one parent/guardian turn up even though many of them had to take an afternoon off work to do so. |
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Cubic09
Joined: 23 Aug 2009
Posts: 66
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| Cool Teacher wrote: |
You also attribute change in the UK to the rise in the number of Muslims but then say it is a bad thing. You say there needs to be more immigration to Japan and suggest that it would be a good thing?  |
I think it's the type of immigration that's important - many Muslims refuse to fit into British society, which is why their impact is not so positive.
In Japan's case, anything other than the status quo would be beneficial. 
You're right about their percentage of society; that's my second false fact today. I'm going to retire now.  |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| Cubic09 wrote: |
I think it's the type of immigration that's important - many Muslims refuse to fit into British society, which is why their impact is not so positive.
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Not really fair to say that. Although in some larger cities you can find communities of muslims who segregate themselves from the rest of society, you can also find other reglious minorities and ethnic groups that do the same.
Apart from in the cases of some cities, you find that most muslims live very well amongst everyone else, sending their kids to the same schools, shopping at the same supermarket, working in the same offices as everyone else.
It's true there has been some tension now with regards to the muslims, but that's been a lot more due to some very bad government handling of very sensitive issues and also how some of the rest of the population have reverted to a level of predujice and discrimination that we should be long past since the July London bombings.
So in many cases they feel they are being forced out of mainstream society. And feel that they now have no choice but to remove themselves from the rest of society in order to be a good practising muslim.
And by the way, we are hardly being invaded by immigrant muslim these days. According to the UK government statistics, out of nearly 600,000 immigrants who came into the UK in 2007, the largest single nationality by far was the Polish who made up a 6th of the total number of immigrants that year.
P.s. yes, you were slightly off with the stats. According to the last census, it is 3% in England and Wales and 0.5% in Scotland are muslim |
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Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Cubic09 wrote: |
I think it's the type of immigration that's important - many Muslims refuse to fit into British society, which is why their impact is not so positive.
In Japan's case, anything other than the status quo would be beneficial.
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Even if the immigrants refuse to fit in to Japanese society?
I also think that most Mulsims I know in England were no odifferent to anyone esle. They usually fit in the same. Mayeb there are places where they don't but I haven't been there. |
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starteacher
Joined: 25 Feb 2009
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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Do WE (Divison: gaijin subdivision: English teacher) fit into Japanese society  |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Cubic09 wrote: |
| Glenski wrote: |
| What do you consider "an army", let alone what it is supposed to do to incite change? |
Something more than 1% of the population. |
Well, Japan has more than 1%. More than 2% of the population are foreigners.
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| Japan is 99% ethnically homogenous, so it's little wonder that there's no change. Where's the change going to come from?? |
Oh, I agree that change needs to come from an influx of people. But to say that it is 99% homogenous is not exactly correct, or at least deserves some explanation. What is "homogenous"?
Think Ainu, Korean & Chinese ancestry before you answer.
| seklarwia wrote: |
For me a decent citizen is simply a law abiding one. No social skills can make for a highly unlikeable character and annoyance in the work place, but that doesn't make them bad people.
A little pampering doesn't hurt... Drill sergents are quite often despised by their children despite their best intentions.
Although I don't think its a good thing that more and more kids are locking themselves up to play videogames or surf the internet, etc at least these kids aren't wondering the streets looking for something to do, which often leads to some form of badness. |
1) The government a couple of years ago took away the mandatory Saturdays for schooling because of a few incidences of juvenile crime (hijacking a bus at knifepoint, for one). Their idea was to have kids stay at home more, where their parents would provide more love and role modeling, etc., thus reduce the crime potential. Inside of a couple of years, parents objected so vigorously (because they felt their kids were missing valuable schooling) that they changed the law back.
2)You can't honestly compare drill sergeants to parents! Puh-lease! The kids may not be wandering the streets, as you put it, but they are becoming social misfits to the point that it is crippling them. It's no secret that they already have a lower maturity than many other countries. Some kids send hundreds of email messages a day. They stand together in groups and NOT talk, but send emails instead. Using their cell phones is so common that many/most can't even use a computer keyboard, so it goes beyond mere social issues.
HS and college kids are "pampered" by parents in that Mom and Dad will vigorously object to the school for failing their kids or just giving them low scores. They are also "pampered" by their teachers in that they are given opportunity after opportunity to make up failed exams or whole courses. Can't make the school itself look bad, now can we, just because the students are too ignorant/lazy/socially misfit to do the work? Parents also let their kids stay at home (re: freeters and parasite singles) far too long, so they have less idea of what it is like to live on one's own. Having Mom and Dad pay rent and insurance also gives them the wrong idea of how to get by in life.
Parents at your school may turn out in droves, but you know why. They want to be sure that they tell their teachers to pass Takashi and Keiko. I've BEEN there to those open houses and PTA meetings! That's PRECISELY what they tell me straight to my face! |
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cornishmuppet
Joined: 27 Mar 2004
Posts: 642
Location: Nagano, Japan
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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A six or seven year old kid ran up to me when I was going into the gym the other day and said 'gaijin!' and pointed. His mother smiled, laughed and muttered some 'oh don't do that' comment which the kid completely ignored. I dread to think what my mother would have done if I'd gone up to a black or an Asian guy at the same age and said something related to his non-nativeness. There certainly wouldn't have been any smiles or jokes.
Kids in this country are ridiculously pampered. Every time I see a sleeper or someone being rude or disrespectful to any teacher bar the head of their sports club (who always seems to be revered) it makes me seethe. I work in two high schools and the kids are pretty nice on the whole, but I get the feeling that's because they choose to be rather than because society tells them they should.
In a restaurant just today I was up at the buffet counter when these three girls came up beside me. One of them started doing all that irritating 'Hello how are you I'm fine' answering her own questions and stuff that I used to get in Junior High School. I smiled politely and responded where necessary. I tried to think she was shy and wanted to talk to me but it was quite clear she was attempting to mock me for the amusement of her friends. In my mind I was thinking, 'Aren't you about 30? Is this really how people your age should act?' |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
2)You can't honestly compare drill sergeants to parents! Puh-lease! |
Why not? I've seen all flavours of parenting, haven't you? I've seen many a parent who could put my "favourite" multi-training PO and drill instructor to shame. And I'll most certainly never forget the classmate whose father came to our AS result day to then start shouting about how stupid he was for getting 3 As and 1 B, that no son of his was going to get a B and that he was most certainly going to be resitting in Jan. The classmate only spoke to say "Yes Sir!" and "Sorry Sir!" If you don't call that drill sergent, then what would you call it?
| Quote: |
Some kids send hundreds of email messages a day. They stand together in groups and NOT talk, but send emails instead. Using their cell phones is so common that many/most can't even use a computer keyboard, so it goes beyond mere social issues.
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I was a child at the beginning of the mobile phone boom. I got my first mobile when I was in year 6 (10 years old) and by the end of year 8, so many kids had them that you count how many didn't have one in my form on one hand. We all sent messages morning, noon and night. At lunch some people were so lazy that they would send text to people just next door. There was a girl in my year who developed severe joint problems due to texting. My brother at one point was spending �200 a month on his mobile. I know what kids can be like with their phones. I also know that in Japan there is a huge problem with "Net-ijime" and "Ura-sites". I still think there are worse things than their excessive use of mobiles. I experienced kids of today in many countries and their is no way you can convince me that the mobile phone issue with kids here is worse than some of the problems elsewhere.
And there is nothing with kids being a little immature. They are kids after all. In the UK, we've been having problems with the exact opposite. Some kids are wanting to grow up and be independent too early and they are willing to do almost anything to achieve their goals to the point that 15/16 year old girls are delibrately getting pregnant because they know they can apply for government provided accomodation under 18 if they have a child. And it was a sad day when a 12 year old boy told the news that he got his 15 year old girlfriend pregnant, but that he was going to grow up quick so that he could provide a good life for his kid. The parents were all singing his praise and encouraging him to throw away his childhood.
Don't know what it was like for you growing up, but in the UK its not unsual these days for children to stay at home well into adulthood. Many students go home for a while after uni. You may call that pampering, but I see it as quite normal. My parents were still paying my rent and other living expenses until I finished uni and I left for China.
| Quote: |
| I've BEEN there to those open houses and PTA meetings! That's PRECISELY what they tell me straight to my face! |
I know what happens at our parent days too, since I'm actually there. Its not all just parents telling teachers to pass their children. They have lectures for the parents on the importance of good study facilities and environment at home, healthy living, how to support children, how to encourage development in children with special needs, etc. Last one was also a meeting to talk about organising the school festival. I still think the parents are taking a lot more interest in their kids school life than happens back home and that it is a good thing. |
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Cubic09
Joined: 23 Aug 2009
Posts: 66
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| seklarwia wrote: |
| Don't know what it was like for you growing up, but in the UK its not unsual these days for children to stay at home well into adulthood. Many students go home for a while after uni. You may call that pampering, but I see it as quite normal. |
I agree - the goalposts have shifted somewhat. Children in Anglo-saxon (sic) countries have traditionally left home once they leave school, inevitably to start their own careers and families. Now, life developmental stages seem to have been 'delayed' somewhat, in the sense that both careers and families are starting later.
There's a few factors in this mix. The wealth of the baby boomer generation has not necessitated the sort of self-sufficiency that's usually required of people once they reach working age. Many parents can afford to subsidise their children's lives, something that was unthinkable a generation ago.
Vastly increased numbers are attending higher education facilities, an activity whose popularity has perhaps led to 'degree inflation', where many jobs that previously required no degree at all now ask for one as a matter of course.
It's true that many children are being forced to grow up at too early an age, and the increasing sexualisation of youth in the media certainly does not help. I for one can't see why they would want to grow up; the world is one mixed up place!  |
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starteacher
Joined: 25 Feb 2009
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:19 am Post subject: |
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Growing up ?
In some countries in so called underveloped nations or developed nations, children in puberty get married. Or at least arranged ones.
And in others, some children are working. Some carry guns.
Whatever the reasons are, social issues are ever increasingly becoming complex, often for the wrong reasons (greed, corruption, power, lust, anger, ego etc).
In one impoverished country the child on the street is envious of another child in developed country who has the chance to go to school and have some education, whilst that latter child does not bother to go to turn up and probably end up on the street. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| I experienced kids of today in many countries and their is no way you can convince me that the mobile phone issue with kids here is worse than some of the problems elsewhere. |
I have zero experience with kids and cell phones in any other country. I don't now nor have I ever owned one in my life. I wasn't trying to compare with countries, but I think you underestimate how bad the problem is here. Let's agree to disagree on that, but agree that it is a problem here.
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| And there is nothing with kids being a little immature. They are kids after all. |
I don't think we're talking about the same level of immaturity. (And, it is irrelevant to this discussion to bring up the opposite problem in another country, IMO.) I won't give you examples of what I consider immature because they would just be labeled as personal anecdotes. Let's just say I've taught HS and university students ("kids"), and I have found them to be about 5-7 years behind maturity levels of Americans (when I was growing up in the dark ages, anyway).
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| Don't know what it was like for you growing up, but in the UK its not unsual these days for children to stay at home well into adulthood. Many students go home for a while after uni. You may call that pampering, but I see it as quite normal. |
No, that's not what I referred to. Yes, some people lived at home while going to uni in my day, but I'm talking about far more than just that, and you should realize how long people continue to live with their parents here. It's not pampering the kids, it's sponging off the parents.
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| I know what happens at our parent days too, since I'm actually there. Its not all just parents telling teachers to pass their children. They have lectures for the parents on the importance of good study facilities and environment at home, healthy living, how to support children, how to encourage development in children with special needs, etc. |
Ours was a sham, so we're obviously dealing with very different school situations.
Very few parents, if any, took an active role in my old school. The rule was, pass my kid, let him take all the club activities he wants, and I'll continue to pay the high fees (private school). |
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Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| 1) The government a couple of years ago took away the mandatory Saturdays for schooling because of a few incidences of juvenile crime (hijacking a bus at knifepoint, for one). Their idea was to have kids stay at home more, where their parents would provide more love and role modeling, etc., thus reduce the crime potential. Inside of a couple of years, parents objected so vigorously (because they felt their kids were missing valuable schooling) that they changed the law back. |
I think part of the reaosn is that parents don't want the kids around and aren't sure what to do with them. Please take the kids back! The paretns ask, and then the school is supposed to raise them.
| Quote: |
| 2)You can't honestly compare drill sergeants to parents! Puh-lease! The kids may not be wandering the streets, as you put it, but they are becoming social misfits to the point that it is crippling them. It's no secret that they already have a lower maturity than many other countries. Some kids send hundreds of email messages a day. They stand together in groups and NOT talk, but send emails instead. Using their cell phones is so common that many/most can't even use a computer keyboard, so it goes beyond mere social issues. |
Here's a good word: "martinet". Some parents are strict like that but the majoity don't really want to use discipline but use bribes, I'll buy you an ice cream if you do what your supposed to. 
| Quote: |
| HS and college kids are "pampered" by parents in that Mom and Dad will vigorously object to the school for failing their kids or just giving them low scores. They are also "pampered" by their teachers in that they are given opportunity after opportunity to make up failed exams or whole courses. Can't make the school itself look bad, now can we, just because the students are too ignorant/lazy/socially misfit to do the work? Parents also let their kids stay at home (re: freeters and parasite singles) far too long, so they have less idea of what it is like to live on one's own. Having Mom and Dad pay rent and insurance also gives them the wrong idea of how to get by in life. |
Yep, becasue the parents want the schools to raise their kids.
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| Very few parents, if any, took an active role in my old school. The rule was, pass my kid, let him take all the club activities he wants, and I'll continue to pay the high fees (private school). |
I suppose its not so different to the idea that public (private) schools and boreding schools in England raise kids.
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:31 am Post subject: |
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Glenski,
I don't think I underestimate the severity of mobile phones here but perhaps after being here for so long you underestimate just how severe it is elsewhere too.
And whereas you may think comparing situations elsewhere is irrelevant, for me, it is totally relevant and shapes how I percieve things.
You have been in Japan a long time, so how you remember things in the US may not be entirely as they are now. And you haven't experienced anything else so when you look at kids in Japan you see mobiles, immaturity and lack of social skills as big problems.
I look at the kids here and think that sure, those are serious issues, but elsewhere kids are high on class As, drinking vodka like water, having babies at obscene ages and running around with knives and guns with the intention of actually killing each other over the smallest altercations. All this as well as having to deal with the problems you mention.
The youths of Japan have problems. And they are severe issues.
But comparing with the situations in other developed countries shows that it could be a whole lot worse. |
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Rooster_2006
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| seklarwia wrote: |
You have been in Japan a long time, so how you remember things in the US may not be entirely as they are now. And you haven't experienced anything else so when you look at kids in Japan you see mobiles, immaturity and lack of social skills as big problems.
I look at the kids here and think that sure, those are serious issues, but elsewhere kids are high on class As, drinking vodka like water, having babies at obscene ages and running around with knives and guns with the intention of actually killing each other over the smallest altercations. All this as well as having to deal with the problems you mention. |
Where are all these American kids running around with knives, guns, grenades, tanks, and napalm?
I lived in the US for 14 years.
I went to US public schools for nine years if you don't count kindergarten. Funny, I never saw any machetes or AK-47s...
I wonder where you folks get all your information. Hollywood movies?
Last edited by Rooster_2006 on Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| Cool Teacher wrote: |
I think part of the reaosn [for the stink about no school on Saturday] is that parents don't want the kids around and aren't sure what to do with them. Please take the kids back! The paretns ask, and then the school is supposed to raise them. |
I think that's about 99.999999999% of the reason.
| Quote: |
Here's a good word: "martinet". Some parents are strict like that but the majoity don't really want to use discipline but use bribes, I'll buy you an ice cream if you do what your supposed to. |
I think part of the problem is that there's a hierarchy in the family (like in most nations) but unlike in most nations, boy children are higher on that hierarchy than their mothers. So if you're a boy and your mother 'asks' you to wash the dishes, then it isn't a command the way it is in other countries and boys can and do just refuse because they're playing video games.
There IS strict discipline here, for ridiculous things- I've seen junior high school girls grabbed by their hair and thrown across the gym into the stage for slouching a little during the principal's speech.
| Quote: |
| the parents want the schools to raise their kids. |
Because many of the parents are young enough that they too grew up in a system that didn't require a whole lot of them (more than it does now, though) and so they don't know what to do, and can't be bothered to learn. It's easier to just be a friend to the kid, even though what they need is a parent.
| Quote: |
| Very few parents, if any, took an active role in my old school. The rule was, pass my kid, let him take all the club activities he wants, and I'll continue to pay the high fees (private school). |
And the big issue with a kid failing is that it is embarrassing for the parent. And within the school, it is blamed on the teacher. If a kid wants to just sit there and do nothing, then in a situation like that, he'll almost always get away with it. I had a kid once who actually told me in Japanese as if he were explaining Japanese culture to me in class, that some Japanese kids don't actually do anything, they just sit and then they are passed through. A JTE was in the room who happened to be the head teacher for the school and he came up and the kid proceeded to tell him that, too. The kid was in second year of senior high school and said that that's what he'd done since the beginning of junior high. The JTE was shocked but just sort of said, well, we don't do that here, you're going to have to do some work. Meanwhile the kid was in second year of senior high school with an education level of an elementary school grade six kid. He passed that year, of course. Now he's a third year senior high school kid with an education level of an elementary school grade six kid.
I think THAT'S the big difference if you look at kids in other nations. In other nations the chance of failing a year will always spur them to do at least the minimum required to get to the next level. They don't have that here and so the kids don't.
| seklarwia wrote: |
| Glenski wrote: |
Japanese parents pamper their kids. They also let them secrete themselves for hours in their rooms where they play video games or chat to friends via cell phones. Result: no social interaction face to face, and no social skills. Citizenship depends on social interaction. |
For me a decent citizen is simply a law abiding one. No social skills can make for a highly unlikeable character and annoyance in the work place, but that doesn't make them bad people.
A little pampering doesn't hurt... |
It does when it's to the level it is in this country by both parents and schools. It isn't uncommon for people to graduate school, have their job that they got in their final year of university or college, and quit because they don't like it (they were expected to actually do something). |
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