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Conor_Ire
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 34
Location: Tokyo
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 Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:43 pm Post subject: Grammer Q: I ate very much/ I swam very much. Please help. |
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This is wrong in my opinion. But i'm having difficultly explaining why because you could say 'I ate too much or I swam too much'.
Please help me. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Conor_Ire,
With only that much contest, there's nothing wrong with saying/writing:
I ate very much. I swan very much.
It means about the same as saying/writing
I ate a lot. I swam a lot.
If you say/write
I ate too much. I swan too much
then you're implying some kind of problem was involved.
I ate too much (and was sick). I swam too much (and got sunburned.)
Regards,
John |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:38 am Post subject: |
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The problem, if there is one, might be that the 'much' in especially 'I swam very much' isn't conveying enough information and therefore "ambiguous" (or just that bit strange): it could be meant to refer to frequency rather than distance, say; in 'I ate very much' however, the notion would be more understood to be (food-)quantity (though, as you've each respectively suggested, 'too much' or 'a lot' would sound better).
Here's the entry from the Collins COBUILD English Usage guide, FWIW:
| Quote: |
much
'very much'
You use very much to say that something is true to a great extent.
I enjoyed it very much.
I doubt it very much.
When very much is used with a transitive verb, it usually goes after the object. You do not use it immediately after the verb. You do not say, for example, 'I enjoyed very much the party'. You say 'I enjoyed the party very much'.
When very much is used with an intransitive verb followed by a 'that'-clause or a 'to'-infinitive, you can put very much either in front of the verb or after it. For example, you can say 'She very much wants to come' or 'She wants very much to come'.
We very much hope he'll continue to be able to represent you.
I hope very much you will be coming on Saturday.
We'd very much like to give you a present.
He would like very much to write to Dennis himself.
WARNING
In positive sentences, you do not use much without 'very'. You do not say, for example, 'I enjoyed it much' or 'We'd much like to give you a present'.
In negative sentences, you can use much without 'very'.
I didn't like him much.
The situation isn't likely to change much.
You can also use much in negative sentences and questions to mean 'often'.
She doesn't talk about them much.
Does he come here much?
WARNING
You do not use much in positive sentences to mean 'often'. You do not say, for example, 'He comes here much'.
Many other words and expressions can be used to indicate degree. For a graded list, see section on degree in entry at Adverbials.
used with adjectives
Much and very much are used in front of comparatives (see below), but are not usually used in front of other adjectives. However, you can use them in front of '-ed' words.
Education is a much debated subject.
She was very much attached to her husband.
You can use very much in front of 'afraid', 'alike', 'alive', and 'awake'.
I am very much afraid that she will end by marrying her cousin.
Dolly and Molly were very much alike.
The animal was not dead but very much alive.
The children were very much awake.
used with comparatives
You often use much or very much in front of comparative adjectives and adverbs. For example, if you want to emphasize the difference in size between two things, you can say that one thing is much bigger or very much bigger than the other.
She was much older than me.
Now I feel much more confident.
The new machine was very much bigger and very much more complicated.
This could all be done very much more quickly.
Much more and very much more can be used in front of a noun to emphasize the difference between two quantities or amounts.
She ought to have been allowed much more time.
Children, whose bones are growing, need much more calcium than adults.
We get very much more value for money.
used with superlatives
Much is sometimes used in front of superlative adjectives.
I thought he was much the best speaker.
...the Svalbard group of islands, of which Spitzbergen is much the largest.
used with adverbials and noun groups
You use very much in front of adverbials. You do not use 'very'.
She does things very much her own way.
Battle damage and fatigue left the eventual outcome of the fighting very much in doubt.
Very much is sometimes used in front of noun groups. You use it to emphasize that someone or something has all the qualities you would expect a particular kind of person or thing to have.
He was very much a seaman.
He was very much a man of the people.
'much too'
You use much too in front of an adjective to say that something cannot be done or achieved because someone or something has too much of a quality.
I knew where it was, but was much too polite to say.
The rooms were much too cold for comfort.
The price is much too high.
Note that in sentences like these you put much in front of 'too', not after it. You do not say, for example, 'The rooms were too much cold for comfort'.
If there is very much more of something than is necessary or desirable, you can say that there is much too much of it.
Eating much too much salt can be dangerous during pregnancy.
However, if there is a very much larger number of people or things than is necessary or desirable, you do not usually say that there are 'much too many' of them. You say that there are far too many of them.
Every middle-class child gets far too many toys.
used as a determiner
You use much in front of an uncount noun when you are talking about a large quantity or amount of something. Much is usually used like this in negative sentences, in questions, or after 'too', 'so', or 'as'.
I don't think there is much danger.
Is this going to make much difference?
It gave the President too much power.
There is so much financial hardship.
It absorbs as much heat as possible.
'much of'
In front of 'it', 'this', or 'that', you use much of, not 'much'.
I still remember much of it in some detail.
Much of this could be glossed over.
You also use much of in front of a noun group which begins with a determiner or a possessive.
Much of the recent trouble has come from outside.
Caroline devoted much of her life to education.
used as a pronoun
You can use much as a pronoun to refer to a large quantity or amount of something.
There wasn't much to do.
Much has been gained from our discussions.
Note that you do not usually use much as an object pronoun in positive sentences. Instead you use a lot. For example, instead of saying 'He knows much about butterflies', you say 'He knows a lot about butterflies'.
I think he knows a lot about protection.
I suppose they learned a lot by doing it.
See entry at lot.
'how much'
You use how much when you are asking about the price of something.
I like that dress -- how much is it?
See entry at how much.
WARNING
You do not use much or much of to talk about a large number of people or things. Instead you use many or many of. See entry at many. |
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mozzar
Joined: 16 May 2009
Posts: 339
Location: France
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| A quick question: is it expected that a teacher should know all that information straight off the bat? Or is a general description of the usage ok? |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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Dear mozzar,
If you know all that information "right off the bat," you'll be a rare teacher indeed.
Certainly your students don't need to know all that (unless you're teaching exceptionally high level ones - and that's likely TMI - too much information - even for them.)
Keep it simple - you have to teach grammar in "stages", telling the students ONLY what they need to know at their particular stage.
If, for example, you have beginners that you're teaching the present progressive tense to, you don't want to throw in the fact that the present progressive can also tell about future time.
The goal is to get the students to learn, not to overload them by displaying how much grammar you happen to know.
Regards,
John |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| mozzar wrote: |
| A quick question: is it expected that a teacher should know all that information straight off the bat? Or is a general description of the usage ok? |
Mozzar, how will a teacher ever be in any position to give "a general description of the usage" if they don't consult reference books (especially when their intuitions fail them)?
Note however that I say 'consult', not 'read cover to cover beforehand'!  (That being said, I think all teachers could do with attempting to read at least one well-structured and reasonably comprehensive grammar all the way through at some point in their career).
Anyway, COBUILD's stuff is pretty thorough descriptively without being too technical. I only supplied the entry (in its entirety) because I for one often find a helpful point or turn of phrase in such usage guides.
| johnslat wrote: |
| If, for example, you have beginners that you're teaching the present progressive tense to, you don't want to throw in the fact that the present progressive can also tell about future time. |
What if the future time use were the most frequent use of the form? (But sure, the addition of time adverbials to the "here and now" use is a logical, time-honoured and apparently pretty painless way of building up the grammar/structure). |
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