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alter ego
Joined: 24 Mar 2009
Posts: 209
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 Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| Hansen wrote: |
| If forming opinions about a group of people based on personal experience makes me a racist, fine. Then I've no problems with being a racist. The Chinese are racists. They make no apologies. |
Thanks for being honest, Hansen. I'm sorry you're a racist, because that kind of hatred is difficult for any man, myself included, to come to terms with. But you admitted it like a man, and I respect you for that. And, I sincerely hope you have better experiences in the future. |
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The Ever-changing Cleric
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1523
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| alter ego wrote: |
| Hansen wrote: |
| If forming opinions about a group of people based on personal experience makes me a racist, fine. Then I've no problems with being a racist. The Chinese are racists. They make no apologies. |
Thanks for being honest, Hansen. I'm sorry you're a racist, because that kind of hatred is difficult for any man, myself included, to come to terms with. But you admitted it like a man, and I respect you for that. And, I sincerely hope you have better experiences in the future. |
So do I, but until then, we have to put up with his racist rantings. |
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Hansen
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 737
Location: central China
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| EC, I see that I was mistaken in attributing a post by AE to you. It appeared that you repudiated your apology; however I was wrong. So my apologies to you. |
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mcl sonya
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 179
Location: Qingdao
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:08 am Post subject: |
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ehm... feel almost awkward chiming in.. this is to the original poster.. if you'd like to know what it was like being an Asian American teacher in China.. I think you should totally go for it, sooner or later you'll find somewhere, and if you work hard you'll find that you'll have more opportunities to build on from there than most foreigners *because* you're Chinese American, assuming you also speak Chinese.
I was also really worried about finding a job and being respected as a foreign teacher. I initially didn't send my picture with my resume, it didn't occur to me to. One school wrote back and we started the paperwork; I sent a photocopy of my passport page and the remark was, "You look very Asian. Are either of your parents Asian?" So I said, well, my mom's from Taiwan, and my dad's from Shandong. The contact was delighted and wrote back, "You do realize we're in Shandong, don't you? Welcome back to your laojia!!" Who knows, you may be lucky like me too.
Perhaps because I went to Qingdao, where overseas Chinese are pretty rare (I only knew of three others my entire time there, and one was mixed), I was treated more like... a "returning hero", to quote one of those Chinese American writers. It's easy to forget this -- it was hard at first. Students complained that I was a fake foreign teacher, and the foreign affair's person at my school told my mom it was a pity that most people didn't appreciate what I had to offer. The Chinese teachers seemed to especially dislike me. But I worked hard and did my best to present lesson plans that I thought I myself would find stimulating and worthwhile, if I were back in university. The complaint went from fake foreigner to hardest foreign teacher, but -- then -- I was doing something right by Asian standard. Some classes actually requested to have me for the second semester, and my school decided to give me only small English major classes.
People ended up thinking it was pretty cool to have a meijihuaren, so Americanized and with a "ke ai" Taiwanese accent and a shining example of how cosmopolitan and modern Chinese people can be. Granted, students would gush about how handsome such and such white foreign teacher was (and I did have some gorgeous coworkers), but -- I still had cute young girls come audit my classes too. They were really interested in what I had to say about cultural differences and western cultures, about English and Chinese languages. Whenever I talked about Chinese Americans they were fascinated. The election was a good time for me to do a lesson on race issues in America and emphasize how American is a multi-ethnic place. Students had brilliant questions to ask. They want to know what it's really like. Even they think the "white is right" thing gets old and can tell when white models are ugly.
As for the LA Times article -- I actually got *offered* a job at Ocean University over the summer session, without my looking, and they asked me to come back my second semester in China. I didn't have any problems with people saying my pronunciation wasn't precise enough. I'm sure that can happen, but I never had it. Even when I was out in Gansu, Chengdu -- wherever -- I would be on those red phones with someone, and townspeople would gather to be like, "Wow! That is some good English!" and excitedly introduce shy little kids to me. A lot of people thought I would be the perfect tutor specifically because I could speak Chinese as well... (you would be very, very, very ill advised to speak Chinese with classes, though). I had never gotten so much credit in my life before for speaking English, and people wanted to know, like, how to become that Chinese person who sounds so American when speaking English.
One of the other ABCs I knew in Qingdao -- I don't remember his whole story, but he started out as a FT in China also, and a couple years later was manager for Wall Street English, this big buxiban chain.
There was a Korean American guy I knew, who was adopted by an American family. He doesn't speak anything except English. Anyway, he had a teaching credential and landed a job with one of the Korean international schools. In spite of - or because of? - the Asian face, parents love him and he has some really good private tutoring jobs on the side.
So all this is just to say -- don't be discouraged. And don't think Chinese people are so racist and ignorant, can't tell you're as good as a white foreign teacher, etc. Some are, but some aren't, and you'll find that once you get there it'll work out well. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| I didn't have any problems with people saying my pronunciation wasn't precise enough. |
One of the funniest thing ever. When Chinese or Koreans are worried about accents. Very few English students in Asia ever acquire a non-Chinese/ non- Korea/etc accent. |
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Zero
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 1402
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:13 am Post subject: |
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If Hansen hates Chinese, Japanese, Korean people etc. because of their black hair, epicanthal eyelid fold, etc., I'd call that racist. You'd probably find him saying, "Those d**ned dark-hairs and their stupid dark hair!"
If he dislikes Chinese people specifically, that's not racist. The Chinese are not a race. You can find people who look just like the Chinese in many other countries.
It might be called ethnicism or countryism or nationism or something.
It's like hating Americans. That's not racism. Americans are not a race. Americans are of many races. And the races of America are found in many other places. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I had never gotten so much credit in my life before for speaking English, and people wanted to know, like, how to become that Chinese person who sounds so American when speaking English. |
What are you talking about? Americans don't have an accent. There are so many different accents in America.
I am guessing that most Americans could differentiate the accent of an Asian, African American, Hispanic, and white on the phone without having seen your skin color. Unless you grew up in a home with white or black parents you most likely have an ABC accent. |
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The Ever-changing Cleric
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1523
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| Zero wrote: |
If Hansen hates Chinese, Japanese, Korean people etc. because of their black hair, epicanthal eyelid fold, etc., I'd call that racist. You'd probably find him saying, "Those d**ned dark-hairs and their stupid dark hair!"
If he dislikes Chinese people specifically, that's not racist. The Chinese are not a race. You can find people who look just like the Chinese in many other countries.
It might be called ethnicism or countryism or nationism or something.
It's like hating Americans. That's not racism. Americans are not a race. Americans are of many races. And the races of America are found in many other places. |
The UN has a convention on discrimination/racism, and many countries have based their own hate/discrimination laws/guidelines on this convention:
International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination
In Article 1:
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| 1. In this Convention, the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life. |
There is no distinction between racial discrimination and ethnic discrimination. It's all discrimination/racism.
The good news is that anyone who feels they have, or knows someone who has racist tendencies, can find help here:
Positive Steps You Can Take Against Racism.
| JZer wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I had never gotten so much credit in my life before for speaking English, and people wanted to know, like, how to become that Chinese person who sounds so American when speaking English. |
What are you talking about? Americans don't have an accent. There are so many different accents in America.
I am guessing that most Americans could differentiate the accent of an Asian, African American, Hispanic, and white on the phone without having seen your skin color. Unless you grew up in a home with white or black parents you most likely have an ABC accent. |
Chinese immigrants have been in the US/Canada/UK for at least 80-120 years. What if you're an ABC whose parents were the children of Chinese immigrants? Would the grandchildren of those immigrants also have the "ABC accent?" How far down the line would this accent go? |
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Mr. Kalgukshi
Mod Team
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 6613
Location: Need to know basis only.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:57 am Post subject: |
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Please stay on topic which is not about whether or not any member here is a racist. Future off-topic postings will be deleted accompanied by sanctions, as appropriate.
Last edited by Mr. Kalgukshi on Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:50 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Chinese immigrants have been in the US/Canada/UK for at least 80-120 years. What if you're an ABC whose parents were the children of Chinese immigrants? Would the grandchildren of those immigrants also have the "ABC accent?" How far down the line would this accent go? |
Actually according to some research accents are not acquired from parents but largely influenced by peers. If an ABC grew up in the country side or in a predominately African America area they would likely aquire a white or African American accent.
The ABC accent is likely acquired due to the fact that many Chinese-Americans live in certain areas thus Chinese-Americans have a lot of contact with each other. I am not a researcher but if a Chinese-America who's family has been in the US for 120 years lives in an area with many Chinese and goes to school with other Chinese, then yes they will have an accent that would be detectable for other Americans even without seeing the face of that person. |
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mcl sonya
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 179
Location: Qingdao
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:39 am Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
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| I had never gotten so much credit in my life before for speaking English, and people wanted to know, like, how to become that Chinese person who sounds so American when speaking English. |
What are you talking about? Americans don't have an accent. There are so many different accents in America. |
Come again? What are you talking about? (I'm genuinely confused). Americans don't have an accent because they have so many accents, so it isn't possible to sound American?
I'm saying that people could pick up that I didn't have a Chinese accent when speaking English. When I hung out with French people and spoke French -- then Chinese people just got really baffled, and looked astonished when I could speak Chinese as well... It's very rare to find a Chinese person who speaks French fluently, but English is becoming pretty common. To rephrase this: I'm saying that there exists quite a few Chinese people who can tell that even though you look Chinese, the language coming out of your mouth isn't the same as a Chinese person's. Yeah? They don't all just function off prejudices and assumptions. They won't automatically assume that because you look Chinese, you *must* be Chinese, and therefore your English *must* be like a Chinese person who had to learn it's English.
I'm emphasizing that people will be able to tell that the OP's English isn't somehow flawed or lesser than a white person's because he looks Chinese.
[quote="JZer"]
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Unless you grew up in a home with white or black parents you most likely have an ABC accent. |
Eh, you're guessing wrong, I don't have an ABC accent and I didn't grow up with white or black parents. It has nothing to do with your parents. Like you say later, it has more to do with your community. But -- I know what you mean, there is an ABC and an... ABK? accent that are both distinctive and both legit native English speaking accents. |
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mcl sonya
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 179
Location: Qingdao
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:50 am Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
| Quote: |
| ...Would the grandchildren of those immigrants also have the "ABC accent?" How far down the line would this accent go? |
I am not a researcher but if a Chinese-America who's family has been in the US for 120 years lives in an area with many Chinese and goes to school with other Chinese, then yes they will have an accent that would be detectable for other Americans even without seeing the face of that person. |
:/ I studied social linguistics, and well, I know these communities, so if I can chime in:
"How far down the line would this accent go" -- it depends. Most of the time, not very far. But, also - it depends on how the kid sees himself, and how he wants to be presented to the world... There are regional traits, but accents are often picked up that way, as a way of distinguishing where you belong socially, that's how you can have a family where the dad sounds like a blue collar hick, a mom who sounds very proper and correct and upper middle class in her English, and kids who -- deciding on which parent they want to identify with -- can have either. Or a completely different accent. Or, that college educated kid who grew up in a small town in West Virginia who, unlike everyone around her, has a completely "Standard American" English. You can have kids whose parents have accents and they don't, or kids whose parents don't have an accent, and they do.
My stepdad's grandparents came over from Japan. He totally doesn't have any kind of Japanese accent, and he grew up near a Japanese-American community. I had a couple Korean American classmates who had lived in America all their lives and in elementary school spoke the same English as i did, but by the time we were in high school had distinctive Korean accents.
A lot of Chinese American kids will have a period where they consider themselves fully American and dislike appearing as a fob, and if they ever had an Asian accent, this would be the time when they shed it completely. Other kids will have the phase where they think being a fob is an integral and special part of their identity, and develop the accent. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:24 am Post subject: |
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| Eh, you're guessing wrong, I don't have an ABC accent and I didn't grow up with white or black parents. It has nothing to do with your parents. Like you say later, it has more to do with your community. But -- I know what you mean, there is an ABC and an... ABK? accent that are both distinctive and both legit native English speaking accents. |
I never said they were not legit accents but they are easily identifiable by anyone who's English is native or near native. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| I'm emphasizing that people will be able to tell that the OP's English isn't somehow flawed or lesser than a white person's because he looks Chinese. |
No, that is because they will not be able to tell. Some Chinese people could not tell the difference between a German, American, or Spanish person speaking English. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:35 am Post subject: |
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| Eh, you're guessing wrong, I don't have an ABC accent and I didn't grow up with white or black parents. It has nothing to do with your parents. Like you say later, it has more to do with your community. But -- I know what you mean, there is an ABC and an... ABK? accent that are both distinctive and both legit native English speaking accents. |
I agree with most of your points. But just because you don't think you have an accent does not mean that some people would not be able to tell that you were Asian on the phone. |
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