Job Discussion Forums

[ThaneKerner]

I think some of you guys are living in a dream world. Maybe all you experienced folk are. I see a lot of opinions floating around in this forum when it comes to potential Middle East deals, most of which are negative. Take this hypothetical offer, for example:

12,000 SR a month in salary
Housing & utilities paid
Non-shared housing
Plane ticket paid
Visa expenses paid
25-30 hours a week working
30 days paid vacation
Holidays paid

And some will call this a TRASH BIN deal.

This isn't trash bin. It's not a bad deal, actually. I'd label it fair and acceptable. It's not great, mind you, but think from the employer's POV. The employer doesn't know you from Adam or Eve if you're new to the Middle East. He is taking a big chance on hiring you, and is even footing your air fare and visa costs to go to the place. That's some risk he is willing to shoulder for you. What the hell more do you want? A penthouse for accommodations? A 10-hour work week? 500 USD a day in salary?

You newbie types who look here for opinions should instead look at your offers more carefully. Weigh what you're getting and look at it from the employer's perspective. Also, don't keep turning down deals just because they're rumoured to be mediocre. Sure, not taking a 'bad' deal may be the noble thing to do, but why should YOU keep playing the sacrificial lamb by remaining unemployed so someone else can enjoy the fruits of your actions (higher salaries industry-wide, supposedly/less competition because you're sitting on the sidelines)?

Some people here at this board would label a Saudi job offer that pays less than 15K SR with everything paid and 25 hours a week a 'bad' deal. You listen to those folks and follow their advice, you'll be helping prop up our salaries for a long while. Enjoy your unemployment.

[Pikgitina]

I feel your frustration, ThaneKerner. When I was new to teaching abroad and eventually to this forum, I often thought the same: "How the hell can it be that bad if it looks that good?"

Have you worked in Saudi Arabia before? If so, you'll know that the employers that offer shared housing, 30 days' paid leave and 25-30 hours of contact time a week are the ones to avoid. They are most likely recruiters who are taking a big chunk of your salary and hence not providing single accommodation.

My accommodation in Riyadh was shared. There were three of us when I got there and later only two as the one was sent to the Eastern Province. We got along well and the flat was huge so it was fine. But I wouldn't want it again. Why should I settle for that if there's more on offer?

The experienced folk around here know what they are talking about, because, ahem, they have the experience. They answer questions honestly so that those who are living in a dream world can wake up to the reality of what conditions in Saudi Arabia could be like if you don't do your research carefully. I don't think there's any desire to keep these jobs for themselves. It's likely that they have far better deals than the ones advertised or have left the country already.

On the flip side, one also has to start somewhere. If you need Middle East experience and you don't have what the better employers require, you probably have to bite the bullet, take a chance and just go for a year or two. It's astonishing what one can get used to. I did it once. For a long time, I thought I'd probably gotten the worst gig in Saudi Arabia, but having listened to and read about others' experiences, it wasn't so bad. It's all relative in the end, but I would never risk it again just for $$$. For example, I know someone who works at the much maligned KSU. He says it's bad, but it's possible to just get on with things and then go home. Short hours, easy work, good money = a good opportunity to finish that MA. Whether you'll be able to pull that off though (that's if you want to, of course) depends on how flexible and adaptable you are - and how well developed your BS-threshold is.

[ThaneKerner]

Thanks for that feedback. I get tired of people (again--experienced people who have forgotten what new folk have to settle for) trying to tell me that a deal in which I can save almost 3 grand a month is 'bad'. For someone new to the Kingdom, that's pretty good coin. I'd like to get over to the Middle East for a change, but if I keep listening to the vets here, I won't make it. I'll be turning down offers because somebody keeps telling me they're 'bad'.

For our experience level, and the many of us who don't have degrees in education, perhaps we should be glad we're being offered what we're being offered.

However...HOWEVER...if I try to get a job in the Kingdom and discover my agent is a lying snake, then any deal he gives me will become suspect and 'bad', as in 'high risk'.

[Never Ceased To Be Amazed]

TK, I can't remember any "vets" giving that kind of feedback. I think that they all say avoid the recruiters and go direct. As I remarked in a thread a few days ago, it's amazed me on how I've watch certain posters here that NEVER set foot in the kingdom suddenly become "vets" apparently because they feel so confident from the insight that people gladly post to them.

I suspect that those may be to whom you refer as, again, I can't remember any authentic vets, either there now or gone, who has posted anything unrealistic.

NCTBA

[Chaudhry]

[veiledsentiments]

Of course, one problem with your rant TK is that what you have chosen as your example is rather cherry picked - salary / housing / basic benefits are what is given as acceptable... while the teaching hours are too high and vacation is too low - more what would be offered by language schools. That would be an unusual combination based on what has been written here lately. The experienced people are the ones in the reality based world, and it is the dreamers in other countries with the unrealistic attitudes.

Chaudhry has hit on a very important factor. KSA pays well because the conditions are often difficult and sometimes downright unpleasant.

But there is that famous saying "all is relative." What looks like a great package to someone teaching at a sweatshop in Asia or South America must be put into perspective. Employers are looking to pay as little as possible and we teachers are hoping to get as much as possible. Those that will accept the worst packages end up pulling down the pay/benefit packages for everyone. And the reality is that it is already happening. The entry level jobs in KSA used to all provide better packages than the one you list... but people who didn't understand what was standard and have accepted poor deals have done exactly that. It has allowed employers to slowly and steadily chip away at the good packages that used to be offered.

Remember that one's lifestyle is another thing that must be factored in. Many accept a package like this because it looks fantastic and then they find that they can't cope with the restrictions of a perhaps very limited social life with no booze or women... the unrelenting heat... and the call to prayer blasting them out of bed at 4:00 am every day.

The experienced teachers here have usually lived it... and certainly read hundreds of posts from people who thought their offer looked fantastic and then were planning their escape within weeks or even days of arrival. And of course, one of the major disadvantages of KSA is that often it is as hard to get out as it was to get in.

I think these posters that you are attacking have your best interests in mind.

VS

[Pikgitina]

[Pikgitina]

[ThaneKerner]

[Never Ceased To Be Amazed]

Again, searching my memory modules, and I still can't bring to mind anyone who's actually been there posting that 'cept some of those "virtual vets". I only remember recruiter vs. direct hire advice. I supposed it's possible that when I read what you've refered to that it was so incredible that I didn't commit it to memory...

NCTBA

[ThaneKerner]

[veiledsentiments]

The thing is TK that there are few, if any jobs, paying $4000 a month (standard is to talk monthly in the Gulf) that require the high teaching hours and short summer holiday. Most lousy packages are totally lousy... you see people on here who have accepted or are considering accepting the long hours and short holidays to share their housing with strangers, and get paid $2500 a month or even less. (and they will also probably get a bad location and abusive management... tends to come as a set)

What people here are trying to do is to make sure that people don't sell themselves short. I find it strange that the new applicants so often get huffy when people here are only trying to make them aware of the realities.

Yes, we may sound spoiled by our experiences in this part of the world compared to others. But most people want to come here to the Gulf to improve their financial situation. We're just trying to help you maximize your money while making it as pleasant as possible.

VS

[Never Ceased To Be Amazed]

O.K., gotcha. I pay no attention to PMs and none to emails unless I trust the source...

NCTBA

BTW, the scenerio that you mentioned last, altho on the lower end of the scale, certainly is livable. It's jes' the kingdom isn't...IMHO.

[johnslat]

Dear ThaneJerner,

"I don't know. Maybe I'm still young and don't mind working those long-ish days."

I'd also say the hours (25-30) are too many and the vacation (30 days) is too short.
But the pay (12,000 SR a month - about $3,200) is OK and the "non-shared housing" is a big plus.

But hypothetical is right - it looks like a mix of, say, language schools (the bad) and government/university jobs (the good.)

How many hours is "too many" is, I'd say, pretty subjective. Personally, I think that once it gets over 25 max, it can become a long-term grind, especially if you have "difficult" students.

And, of course, a lot also depends on the potential employees qualifications and experience.

So, no - I wouldn't call that a "hypothetical trash bin job," but, given the hours and the holiday mentioned, neither is it one I'd rush to accept.

Regards,
John

[ThaneKerner]