Job Discussion Forums

[snollygoster]

I also have the BIG 3-That doesnt mean that the employers I work with are willing to assist.

Whilst some of us may have more "helpful" employers, its a fact of life that most employers are looking to keep costs down, and doing work permits takes considerable admin resources, and is costly.

This is leaving teachers out in the cold, and until employers see teachers walking away, they are probably not going to be of much help.
When they see the value in assisting their teachers with obtaining the work permit, it will probably be too late for some, and Vietnam will have lost some valuable resources, not to mention the permanent damage done to the career mind sets of dedicated teachers who felt they were succeeding in making a difference.

[Green Acres]

Getting a work permit is much easier since the government eased the regulations about 8 months ago. If you have lived in Vietnam for the past year, then you shouldn't have a problem attaining one within a few weeks. There is a problem, however, since the bottom line is being encroached upon by making the system more transparent for the taxman. Black market mafia types, like the ones who run many of the schools, don't like WTO style transparency.

The government and the schools are duplicitous in maintaining the problems with visas now being felt by many in the esl industry in Vietnam. There are several reasons for this. Initially, they would like to point to the lack of credentials some "cowboy" teachers from the west are lacking, such as a college degree. They would like to further the argument that many foreigners are here and they are not equal in standing to a Vietnamese teacher, who has a college degree. As we all know, this is an irrelevant motive that is draped in cultural superiority and protectionism.

The economy is about to take a very big hit in Vietnam. Those who are aware of the past abuses and the current situation are not in any disagreement about this. The only real question is when will the money from heaven cease to fall? The goverment is already preparing this eventuality, as one group of unnecessary members of the expat intelligentsia can be eliminated while protecting jobs for Vietnamese teachers. Such protectionism will also save the many franchise owners since they will most likely maintain the same costs of services with well trained, certified Vietnamese teachers filling the void. While the country could not put this into practice even 5 years ago, it seems that the workforce is abundant enough to begin the change.

Of course the government, to a great degree, is completely unaware of the transient nature of foreign ESL professionals in the country and the reasons for this. Stricter guidelines will eliminate this segment of workers/travelers, and in some ways, real wages may increase for those western teachers who land permanent jobs while working part-time on the side. I would imagine that long-term contracts will not be written in the best interests of teachers, but that teachers' signing on for low numbers of hours would find more time to work part-time to greatly supplement their incomes (since the competitive pool will be mostly empty).

It is not so well kept a secret that Vietnamese ESL professionals believe they can teach better than foreigners. As one poster wrote, they only need us for pronunciation, which is a bit simplistic, but also very true. That is how they feel about us. It is the reason that most schools now have a considerably large Vietnamese staff that teach grammar, reading, writing and listening. Anyone who has been watching the events of the past 5 years can see that the western ESL professional has been slowly crowded out. These new regulations are merely an attempt to protect the ESL industry and keep Vietnamese money in Vietnam.

Don't worry, it's only going to get worse. Hazards are risks; risks are chances; and chances can become something beneficial. It is generally for people who may never read this forum, who come to Vietnam for 6 months on a working holiday, who are backpackers....these jobs are the ones that are being eliminated, unfortunately.

[just noel]

[ajc19810]

As someone posted before it is not that difficult to get a work permit in theory, but it becomes not so simple when your school doesnt process your papers for you. I am sure there are thousands of teachers who all have documents and are willing to submit them, but the schools are not coming to the party.
Samll and large school will rebel against these regulations by doing what many have done in the past. If a teacher can only work 3 months then the school will simply find another teacher after the 3 months to replace them and this will continue. So the industry may become more backpackers central than it was before with new teachers coming in and out of schools. Remember many of these school owners dont care about the quality that is offered at their schools so retaining teachers wont phase them.

Big chain schools will look at consolidating the market as they have the structure and the cash to do so. Most already processing work permits, and doing them quite quickly mind you, which include recruitment drives overseas.

Either way there will be a period, which seems to be happening now, that will screw many of us until the school owners start playing fair. I hate the idea of having to return to a more formal role in a big school. Personally, I've survived working in ESL because I've had that flexibility and haven't had the stress that comes with ESL or been able to get out when ESL stress starts occuring.

[snollygoster]

AJC- I applaud your telling it as it really is. Maybe a FEW of us are fortunate enough to be employed by establishments that really DO care and show it by providing the necessities to get a work permit, but the vast majority are in a different boat.

Most employers are NOT prepared to go the extra mile to make sure they keep teachers- And lets face it, why should they when every 3 months they can lure some fresh face just "off the boat" and turn him/her around in 3 months too? Commercial viability in a corrupt market that encourages such practices.

[inky]

"Maybe a FEW of us are fortunate enough to be employed by establishments that really DO care and show it by providing the necessities to get a work permit..."
Okay, thank you for acknowledging that. I just want new or potential arrivals to hear that it's not 100% bad, not all corrupt, there are some good employers around who will get the proper paperwork done, in the interests of their teachers and their students, understanding that longer-term happy teachers will lead to happier, contented returning students. However, it's also true that those schools make demands on teachers that more (shall we say) "flexible" schools do not.

This system of different kinds of work situations was working out fine for most until recently when the visa regulations started getting enforced.

[garo]

I am in Hanoi and want to renew my visa. I do not have a WP. My school doesn't know or want to assist in renewing my visa.

Can someone PM me a place/company/organization that can renew it?

Thank you.

[ajc19810]

yeah, for sure there are many schools out there that will get the wp's because of good owners and mangers, vietnamese and foreign. Newbies will still have an awesome time here, no doubt, just not as good as a time as some old timers.

[garo]

[inky]

Garo, what kind of visa do you have now? How many renewals have you had? It would be easier to give you advice with this extra info.

[garo]

[ajc19810]

I feel your pain garo. One of the schools that i work for (on and off), my docs have been sitting in his desk for the past 3 years. I left his school and he sent me an email not too long ago that he was still processing my docs and I am welcome back anytime. Love the school, I even like the guy (drinks like a fish), but doing any kind of business with him is impossible. Never really bothered me until recently when people started reporting visas being denied. Mind you its the kind of school that the security guard meets the boys in green out the front with a fat envelope every month.

garo if you have all the docs why dont you change school to one that will help you?

There is another forum which a viet agent is advertising that despite the new visa regs he is able to get 3 months multi entry 'no hassles'. My guy swears to me it will be no problem, but i dont know how much confidence i can take out of that. I always trust Vietnamese people on a personal level, but never on a business level. Maybe trust is the wrong word, Lets just say that I am always very cautious, more so than in Uc.

With all this stress about Visas, the question that concerns me the most is why when i play bi da do viet guys throw their leg over the end of the table when people are having their shot. So odd!! Get off my table freak!!!

[garo]

[BenE]

[snollygoster]

Teacher: Nag nag nag-"What is being done about Work permit?"
Director: "Yes its being done". "
Teacher: "Why are the documents I gave you 6 months ago still on your desk then?"
Director: " I do tomorrow."

Tomorrow never comes so my good wife takes the documents to the Immigration Dept where she meets a very impolite someone who tells her straight out "We want to get rid of foreigners- its unlikely your hubby will get a visa renewal"
So what does he need?- he is married- has baby etc-want to stay with family.
He needs to get certain things from employer. Ok what- he tells her.
Go back to employer with the details:
Teacher: "Please provide these things so I can get my own WP"
Director: "What the hell are you doing going there- now the authorities know about our school and will force us to do things-your wife shouldn't have done that-make a lot of difficulties".

Really? as difficult as letting the authorities break up our family whilst you don't do your duty?
As you were not prepared to do what you said you would, I just thought I would get my own. Sorry if it inconveniences you.

Result? Very nervous wife-very nervous teacher.
Oh to be one of the FEW who have employers who show some fortitude and forethought.

TRUE STORY! Hope the authorities crawl all over the school, looking in every nook and cranny.