Job Discussion Forums

[lucreziaborgia]

My students don't aks questions that have already been answered.

[sg9015]

You have answered a question that wasn't even asked. The question wasn't one about how to obtain a work permit, it was about being able to teach here with only a degree and no formal TEFL qualification. It is well documented that people in that position can get jobs here and are commonly referred to as 'Back-packer' teachers.

Are you still saying that you need a degree and a Celta to teach here? If you are, you are slightly confused. There seems to be plenty of people trying ti disuade others from coming here and I can only think that it is self-preservation on the part of some people already here.

So, just for the record, why don't you state what you understand to be the difference between obtaining a work permit and actually turning up as an L1 native speaker on a tourist visa with no qualifications and getting a job here.

[Andy123]

Yes, by all means come. This is Vietnam and what you are told today changes tomorrow.

I have been here for many years and I am happily married with kids and have all the material goods that come with it i.e. my wife has a house, a motorbike, etc. that she lets me use occationally. I have a good job and a work permit.

SG9015, I have seen many of you who "think" you have it all figured out. That's great. Come and learn.

At present you can not work legally in Vietnam on a tourist visa. Never could! Do people do it? Yes. Can you do it today? Yes. The problem is the Immigration department will only extend your current visa for 3 months then you will need to convert it to a C-2 Visa. I know you don't qualify. Look it up.

This all comes from the Dept of Immigration and Labor's official website. If your Vietnamese is a little rusty have someone translate it for you.

If you want to come here and work on a tourist visa you can find work I'm sure. But you will only be able to renew that tourist visa for 3 months.

Never mind my friends who have been here for years who have degrees, certificates and experience who can't get their schools process or properly process their paper work. Even some of them work at "International Schools" and it is a bloody mess. They are bouncing off the walls wondering what to do. Yet you have it all figured out. Can we call you for advice?

There are no guarantees in Vietnam. Vietnam is complicated. We are only guests here.

Best advice if you come is to have a financial safety net to weather out the storm. It may change it may not. If you live in the tourist areas, eat western food and transport like a tourist it can get damb expensive.

[sg9015]

Andy, I don't have it all figured out and neither do I think it is possible to 'know it all' in a country like this. I'm new in Saigon but having just worked in Kazakhstan for the past 3 years, I'm no idiot when it comes to living abroad.

My assertions are focused on a very narrow area in response to a particular post saying that you can't work here without a WP. Am I correct in saying that people do and can, but your time is finite?

I have a B3 6 month Visa. Does that surprise you?

[that other guy]

MOD EDIT

Is it possible to teach and get paid for it in VN without all the proper documentation?

YES

All of this depends on any number of variables including the "who you know" good-ole-boy system.

The fact is, VN Immigration isn't here to break up families or to throw out legitimate teachers BUT at present, they are here to stun the growth of the backpacker teacher market BUT even that depends greatly on who-you-know.

I still say, go directly to VN Immigration unless you've got something to hide - then the good-ole-boy system is best for you. If your school isn't hooked-up with the right people, they're either a bunch of idiots or they're really not committed to you and they're using this as an excuse to let you go gently which is one of the many VN subtle ways to tell you bye bye!

In VN, all things are possible if the school wants you bad enough!

[lucreziaborgia]

Well, those good 'ol boys were my former students and I think you might be in for a shock. I have met several TEFLers from China who have been given a 1 month's visa and they are running around Vietnam confidentthey will get employment, a work permit and a salary. I know other people who have been here for years who have received likewise a one month extension on their visas. Not only teachers with impeccable qualifications and experience but NGO employees as well.
It seems that this country's choice to manage its own affairs in its own way and for its own reason, hasn't sunk in. Given all the comments on this forum from those of us who have been here for years it is amazing that newcomers appear to be incapable of accepting what is said by people who know.
MOD EDIT

[Mr. Kalgukshi]

Some members posting on the Vietnam forum seem unable or unwilling to recognize that the current situation apparently confronting many foreign teachers there (or considering going there) is a sensitive and serious one.

Your comments are too abrasive, unhelpful and very close to or actually constitute trolling. If you have something constructive and helpful to say, say it and avoid unnecessary and inappropriate comments.

If not, you will be permanently banned and this will include your iSP.

[that other guy]

[lucreziaborga wrote:]It seems that this country's choice to manage its own affairs in its own way and for its own reason, hasn't sunk in. [/quote]

Sorry if what I said was a little too simplistic.

The truth is that this current situation is still unfolding. In the past, VN law was pretty idealistic but the enforcement was a mag-wire of difficulty as the different branches of police didn't cooperate with each other very well. This new situation is supposed to be the exception to that but as of now maybe 90% of that has come down to VN Immigration making the final decision.

I've been here almost 5 years and this is the most concerted effort I've ever seen by any police dept. so far. But the VN police aren't a bunch of heartless devils! Also, the old VN way of these guys supplementing their income hasn't disappeared either.

We can predict any number of ways this will settle down to BUT it hasn't settled down to that point yet so all we're doing is guessing until then.

[lucreziaborgia]

I think there are other issues such as inflation and unemployment that is also a contributing factor to these measures. I believe from what I've been told, that there are many Vietnamese English teachers who have been educated overseas through Government scholarships that are able to teach English as well (if not better) than some of the L1 speakers who have been gainfully employed for years with few or no qualifications and scant experience. It is understandable that given the Country's investment, local teachers need to be employed.
There are many competent Vietnamese teachers who have not gone overseas for further study who are also being employed by language schools as English teachers.
The Government is investing in English language training as a priority and obviously intends Vietnamese teachers to fill the role of English teachers.
This makes sound economic sense given the current climate combined with the present and future objectives of the Country.
There will always be a need for native English speakers who are also qualified and experienced ESL teachers and as with Middle Eastern countries a minimum of a MA + graduate TESOL Diploma from a reputable university and several years quantifiable professional experince will be required in the not too distant future.
This has happened (and is happening) throughout non - English speaking countries and it is obvious that it would happen here.
We all are well aware that jobs can still be found here but it would be myopic to regard them as having any longevity.

[sg9015]

I have no idea which way Vietnam is going as you say. There are many factors to consider before you even begin to guess.

The first thing that strikes me, and it was something which was apparent in my previous country, is the thirst for L1 accuracy on pronunciation, idiomatic expressions and just knowing when something is not right. I taught at a language college where I was the only native speaker. The local teachers had a very good standard of English but they made frequent errors with prepositions and articles. They also found it difficult to structure written English. Pronunciation was obviously a key issue too. But, to their credit, they wanted to improve in order to teach their students better English. So, I would have some of the teachers sitting in with my Upper Inter and Advanced classes. They found it helpful and started to speak more from gut instict rather than focusing too much on grammar rules.

My point is, if a country is happy to have a so-so level of English and they aren't too bothered about L1 accuracy then local teachers can do a splendid job. One of my CELTA instructors had been in the UK for 20 years and she still made mistakes with pronunciation. Maybe L1 accuracy isn't strictly achievable for non-native speakers.

I wouldn't compare the situation here with the middle east. There are plenty of schools employing unqualified teachers out there so I don't think that they are in a position yet to demand a Masters degree and Tesol from a simple language teacher. The pay there is much higher than here so people with those qualifications are more willing to work as language teachers but can you honestly see someone wanting to do that in Vietnam for $25 an hour on a 20 hour week? Why would they when they could earn $50k tax free from a reputable International school where most of the teachers don't even have masters degrees?

Even from my limited time here, I have noticed the aspirational and dare I say it, snobby nature of some of the wealthy Vietnamese. They will always want an L1 teacher as an accessory to show off their wealth. It was the same in Kazakhstan. The only other L1 speaker teaching in my city charged $50 per hour for a private lesson and he was inundated. I can see the Factory language colleges employing more locals to drive down their costs and to survive against the other colleges. They will probably have a token L1 speaker which they shift from class to class each week just so they can say that they have native speakers.

Anyway, food for thought.

[lucreziaborgia]

One point is that the Government doesn't want simple language instructors anymore hence it is making it difficult or impossible for teachers without all the prerequisites to get work permits. Without a work permit you do not have job security anymore.
As has been said many times, you will get work here but it is unlikely to be either of the uplifting kind or permanent. Nobody knows what is happening even the people who have been here for years. And even the people with contacts. My last comment to you is that you need to have a contingency plan. That means assume you will not get what you want in Vietnam and keep applying for jobs elsewhere where the requirements are less demanding and the employment conditions for foreigners more user friendly.