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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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 Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:28 am Post subject: Owen Buckland vs Tony Lee Chinese vs Australian recruiter |
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Buckland is a name that pops up a lot. He makes it clear that he recruits. Some people get on his case. What bothers me more is Tony Lee. I wrote about this once before. This guy is/was also a moderator on another chat site. When I compare Tony Lee to Buckland, I think I would take Buckland any day. I'll try to be sure to be factual, and not flame. But it really bugs me when a fellow foreigner becomes as corrupt as any Chinese teacher we complain about.
Teach at Best International School, Zhengzhou, Henan, China: a working holiday in the cradle of Chinese civilisation
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| Teach at Shengda College, China: A change that is better than a holiday |
Well an add like this ought to set off warning signals right away. But to set the record straight, Tony Lee was a businessmean in Australia who came to China the same year I did, at ShengDa. His wife was a real teacher who also taught there. No one, I mean no one complained more about ShengDa, and how bad it was, then Tony did. He threw tantrums in the English Department office. Then he found out that he could make 2,000 for every foreigner he recruited. All of a sudden ShengDa is better then a holiday. Right.  ShengDa could be good. It is a real college. But at least Owen Buckland doesn't make all these grandiose statements.
At least Buckland can help you with problems. Tony Lee will not be there to help you. You can find out how true this is by reading what past foreign teachers went through.
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| Teach at Best International School, Zhengzhou, Henan, China: a working holiday in the cradle of Chinese civilisation |
Working holiday? Translation, underpaid and overworked. First he is wrong,
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| The school was founded four years ago by a Taiwanese educator who also established a university in Zhengzhou ten years ago, |
This is not true. The university he mentions is Shengda, (which is not a university, as he well knows). And foreign teachers of Shengda are not allowed to work at Best
Mr. Tony Lee, the fellow foreign teacher turned recruiter, says
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| There are now three Best International branches in Zhengzhou city, and every effort will be made to accommodate teacher�s wishes concerning time and location of their classes |
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| The basic working pattern will be day hours - 9 am to 5 pm, or afternoon hours - midday to 9 pm Monday to Friday, but extra hours on the weekends or in the evenings are available for those wishing to earn a higher salary |
Does he work here to make those promises? We who work here know that working at these private schools means working weekends. Let's be real. That's the way it is.
Tony Lee says
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| will be advised in all stages of your application by a foreign teacher who has taught in Zhengzhou |
Now let's read between the lines. I will help you apply, get my money. Then I am out of the picture. You're on your own. (Read the post from one of Lee's previous recruitees) At least Buckland will be around to help, possibly.
Tony Lee as no connection whatsoever with Best other then to get paid to recruit you. Why doesn't Best itself make the promises to you? How many teachers out there know of private schools that don't expect work on the weekends? But if you complain to Best about the promises Tony Lee made, you are SOL
I could pick so many problems with his advertisements.
Why the long tirade? Because it is one thing to have a Chinese recruiter lie to you, or mislead you. When a fellow "foreign teacher" throws away any principles he may have to recruit for money at a school he despises, or a school he knows nothing about, that SUCKS!!! |
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Kapt. Krunch
Joined: 01 Apr 2003
Posts: 163
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| Buckland actually makes trips to shakedown schools that are mistreating his charges. He'll move you if you are chronically dissatisfied with a particular location. |
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tony lee
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 79
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 9:40 pm Post subject: Another view on this topic |
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It is rarely worthwhile to rebut accusations made under the cover of a fake name but since arioch36 is actually Chris, the loud talking American, he of the combat boots and camouflage clothing, and one of my beloved fellow teachers at Shengda, then I guess it can�t do any harm to set the record straight.
Lets see what Chris is going on about -
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| What bothers me more is Tony Lee. I wrote about this once before. This guy is/was also a moderator on another chat site. When I compare Tony Lee to Buckland, I think I would take Buckland any day. I'll try to be sure to be factual, and not flame. But it really bugs me when a fellow foreigner becomes as corrupt as any Chinese teacher we complain about |
�factual� � now there is a word that gets the alarm bells ringing.
�Corrupt�? Really Chris. Is that the sort of talk a born-again should use? AND are you are saying that just because you complain about a Chinese teacher, that automatically makes them corrupt?
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| I mean no one complained more about ShengDa, and how bad it was, then Tony did. He threw tantrums in the English Department office. Then he found out that he could make 2,000 for every foreigner he recruited. All of a sudden ShengDa is better then a holiday. Right. ShengDa could be good. It is a real college. But at least Owen Buckland doesn't make all these grandiose statements. |
Millions of people move around the world on �working holidays� because it has huge advantages over just visiting a country as a tourist on vacation -- So what is your problem with a catchy heading that is also true?
Yes I did complain a lot about Shengda and in fact I was probably the second biggest complainer after Chris. I still do complain as Joanna the FAO will readily tell you. However, it seems that despite my complaining � or perhaps because of it � I am still a valued associate of Shengda�s. Can Chris say the same?
I still remember coming into the secretary�s office after hearing a huge commotion and finding Ms Dong�s assistant � later to be her husband � white with rage and struggling to keep control in the face of a tirade from Chris who was screaming mainly about his lack of ability to speak and comprehend English. Funny about that � the poor guy WAS Chinese after all, and everyone knew quite well that his English was strictly rudimentary. I�m not sure why Chris didn�t yell at him in Chinese because he professed to be pretty good at it. So good in fact that when we were out at a fancy restaurant he ordered a beer and of course it arrived warm as is the custom. So we were treated to a display of how to get a cold beer. It did come eventually, and it WAS cold � a glass of beer full to the brim with ice cubes. Hah!
I got into the recruiting business quite by accident. One day I found Grace, the then FAO, struggling with the process of recruiting the next batch of foreign teachers. (Most of us had been asked to stay on but Betty and I couldn�t because I had a business to run and she had a full-time teaching job to reclaim. I seem to recall that Chris was not only NOT asked to stay on despite offering, but had to be kicked out of the apartment because he just wouldn�t take the hint that they really didn�t want him to stay � but of course that could have been just gossip and I don�t always believe in gossip unless I hear it from a trusted source)
I offered to help set up the system and place the ads � with no thought of any reward because despite the odd bit of shouting, I really got on very well with Grace and of course Shirley, our lovely doorkeeper. (Now what was Shirley crying about that time � something to do with one of the FT�s. Which one was that I wonder?).
When I got the first applicant I jokingly said to Grace �don�t forget the finder�s fee� � and was quite surprised when she said (once I explained what it meant) that of course Shengda paid the other recruiters a fee and I would get the same fee. A new career was born.
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| At least Buckland can help you with problems. Tony Lee will not be there to help you. You can find out how true this is by reading what past foreign teachers went through. |
I try and avoid the problems before they start, because that is the smart way to do it. I run a Yahoo email group so that once I get a likely applicant I invite them to join the group. On the site � which has been evolving slowly over three years � there are now lots of photos of many aspects of life at Shengda and Zhengzhou, photos of a few of the past and present teachers of Shengda (including a couple of Chris � Oh, didn�t he tell you about being a member of the group? What was that about being �factual�), links to useful sites, and many information files on laws and regulations of China, lots of info specific to Shengda, floor plans of the apartment, typical timetables, AND several essays and comments from present teachers � warts and all comments too I might add. And about 500 messages asking for and giving information. A good asset for potential and present teachers? They think so.
So Chris � how about the URLs of these complaints. I am very happy to put them on my site if you have them. Thanks.
I did find another post on the Sperling site from a teacher who left at the height of the SARS episodes. He had 3 kids there with him and was concerned enough to do a midnight flit because he was afraid of being kept inside the college under quarantine. Hard to blame him I guess. Teachers all over China were also bailing out so his actions were hardly unusual. He did have a few comments about the administration (the usual ones that can be made about most administrations all over the world � in a word, incompetent) and the fact that he resented the ability of a couple of the teachers to make life a bit easier by sucking up to the bosses. Again, I think we have all heard that tale of woe before and we heard it long before we got to China.
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| This is not true. The university he mentions is Shengda, (which is not a university, as he well knows). And foreign teachers of Shengda are not allowed to work at Best |
That is really funny Chris. Almost every day for at least 6 months the BEST school bus pulled up outside the teacher apartments to pick up Matt, one of our fellow foreign teachers. Surely some-one with your military training would have noticed such a large vehicle � a white one too. Many teachers were invited to teach at BEST (didn�t they ask you too Chris?) and I remember Tonee and Betty were taken in to have a look at the school. Matt was the only one who took up the offer and he actually taught as many hours at BEST as he did at Shengda. And why not � I have been told that the same Taiwanese educator owns both of them. Sometimes the kids at BEST would be brought out to Shengda for activities, but I guess Chris didn�t notice them either. Hmmmm!
Come on Chris � is this true or not?
Yes of course it is as you well know, so it makes the rest of your whinging accusations look pretty sick doesn�t it?
Matt went on to teach at BEST for the next year and I have a photo on the yahoo group for BEST to prove it. Oh yes, I also have another site for those who are interested in teaching at BEST. And the member of staff who acts as the FAO is a member of the email group as well. You see, I put applicants in touch (immediately) with not only the school BUT ALSO past present and future teachers as well. I have been looking at job boards for several years and I think my set-up is pretty special and certainly close to unique.
In Australia, any institution that offers 4 year degrees is called a university. Technically, Shengda is accredited by association with ZhengZhou University. I understand that it is in the process of getting accreditation as a stand-alone institution. We all know that in China there are many ways to get around problems so being officially a College of Zhengzhou University (which supplies the majority of teachers on a part-time basis) is hardly cause for a big song and dance
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| Does he work here to make those promises? We who work here know that working at these private schools means working weekends. Let's be real. That's the way it is. |
BEST is predominately a kindergarten so the kids ARE there during the weekdays. They do have older primary groups and as the adverts say, although every effort is made to fit the teacher into the weekday schedules, there are weekend classes and overtime is available to those who want to teach them. The point being missed is that BEST is aimed at being a bilingual school for little kids and so employs mostly Chinese staff with necessary English skills. If BEST can employ a few native speakers then so much the better. BEST does try to look after the FT�s they get. Do they always succeed � probably not, but as we all say quite often �This IS China�
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| Now let's read between the lines. I will help you apply, get my money. Then I am out of the picture. You're on your own. (Read the post from one of Lee's previous recruitees) At least Buckland will be around to help, possibly. |
Well, I am not sure which recruitee you mean but I don�t recruit all the teachers so perhaps he was not my recruitee at all, but I am quite happy for other recruiters applicants to join my group as well. The more the merrier. Could you be more specific? Actually I am not sure where the comparison with Buckland came from anyway but I have been �around� as you put it for three years and I believe my standing with shengda and the teachers I recruited is more than high enough to be able to help out if the need arises. I am not �out of here� at all but active throughout the whole year. As I said, I try to inform successful applicants of the bad points about China and Shengda � to the point of being accused of being overly negative � because that way will result in properly informed teachers. One of the present teachers has just posted a list of �faults� that she had found that I hadn�t mentioned so that is on the site as well. I asked for criticism and got a bit and posted them gladly.
I also keep in touch with some teachers who did not come to Shengda and occasionally am able to help them out with problems elsewhere in China. Do buckland do that?
Chris keeps mentioning the money. A whole 2000RMB a teacher. Wow! Sounds good until you add up the hundreds of hours and hundreds of emails to get a few thousand RMB. Convert it to Australian dollars and it is peanuts. Despite what Chris may say, the money is not the most important part of the job. The best part is helping the teachers settle in with the minimum of problems. Just recently I terminated the application process for two promising teachers because they were just not temperamentally suited to life in China. One was an ex-US army bloke who started throwing his weight around, so I figured that Shengda had already been along that path once before and certainly didn�t deserve another episode. There is a 30 year man coming next year, so I have nothing against ex-services people � just those who forget they are no longer in the army.
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| Tony Lee as no connection whatsoever with Best other then to get paid to recruit you. Why doesn't Best itself make the promises to you? How many teachers out there know of private schools that don't expect work on the weekends? But if you complain to Best about the promises Tony Lee made, you are SOL |
Not sure what SOL means � must be some tough soldier talk I guess.
Because I have been doing such a good job of recruiting suitable teachers for Shengda, Joanna, the present FAO, passed on my name to Jenny Liu at BEST. After all, the two schools ARE connected so they do cooperate to a certain extent even though they are completely different setups.
BEST is a small organisation and their people don�t have the time or expertise to set up a recruiting system. Shengda will have 30 teachers next year so they can afford to have full-time people looking after things, whereas BEST are looking for only a handful.
I don�t make promises. I get the information from the two schools � Shengda and BEST � and present it in as informative a way as I can. This is part of my philosophy of allowing teachers to make informed choices. Just look at the amount of information given in the average job ad and compare it to my Shengda ad (full version) and ask which is more useful. I admit that the BEST advert is pretty scratchy because I am dealing with people who do not yet understand what sort of things are important to westerners. My BEST web site specifically apologises for the lack of information but as the info comes in it is sent to applicants and put on the site. They can also email the school directly or via the email group. I also send the applicants the full text of all the information that Jenny has sent me so they can judge for themselves. Best are hoping for a long-term relationship so by the end of this current recruiting season we should have things on a very professional basis.
So Chris, I�m not sure what your problem is, but for a start you could buy some regular clothes so you don�t frighten the young students quite so much, and stop blaming the rest of the world for your problems. I once referred to you using a certain fairly objectionable stereotype -- which certainly doesn�t apply to the overwhelming majority of your fellow countrymen that I have had the privilege of meeting -- and after your posts here on this topic, I certainly find no good reason to change it. The truth will out.
Regards
Tony Lee |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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well, Tony, I have no interest in getting personal. What did I say that was personal? Your response does not deal with facts. We will try to remember the purpose of the post was comparing you to Buckland.
One of two personal things I mentioned is how much you despised ShengDa College when you were there, if you want to call this being personal. This is relevant, because once you turned recruiter, your tone changed completely. It became a working holiday in the cradle of civilization. You don't mention this in your adds, or your group, which all the other teachers that worked with you refused to participate with, and that I frequented all of two weeks. You don't give a balanced view of the situation.
You promoted the school to make money when you were the moderator at Chrisman's China Tefl site. Then another lady who I believe was also once a moderator there, who taught at ShengDa last year, wrote to warn people about going to ShengDa
I did not complain about ShengDa while there, though I would not recommend the place, as it has been continuingly been going down hill. I did seriously consider working there a second year. I did complain about one of the workers. I might go back there. I remain in constant contact with my students, unlike yourself, who took a trip with one of your stuents, the end result was her refusing ever to talk to you again? But now I am descending to your level, and not dealing with the issue ...a recruiter like you compared to Buckland
I don't think it is proper to involve the names of other people in a discussion here, as they did not ask to get involved.
PS I notice the quotes got mixed up. What I said is in white somehow.
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At least Buckland can help you with problems. Tony Lee will not be there to help you. You can find out how true this is by reading what past foreign teachers went through.
I try and avoid the problems before they start, because that is the smart way to do it
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Totally avoids the questions. I was comparing you to Buckland, who some have called corrupt. Now I will apologize if that came out as me calling you corrupt. I am not calling either person corrupt. But Buckland will be around after the person arrives. You have no clue what is going on.
ShengDa teachers are forbidden to work at Best. You not knowing this only goes to show how out of touch you are with the situations at the schools you recruit for.
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That is really funny Chris. Almost every day for at least 6 months the BEST school bus pulled up outside the teacher apartments to pick up Matt, one of our fellow foreign teachers. Surely some-one with your military training would have noticed such a large vehicle � a white one too. Many teachers were invited to teach at BEST (didn�t they ask you too Chris?) and I remember Tonee and Betty were taken in to have a look at the school. Matt was the only one who took up the offer and he actually taught as many hours at BEST as he did at Shengda. And why not � I have been told that the same Taiwanese educator owns both of them. Sometimes the kids at BEST would be brought out to Shengda for activities, but I guess Chris didn�t notice them either. Hmmmm!
Come on Chris � is this true or not?
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Of course you are sticking to the facts and not getting personal.
yes Tony, this was true...THREE YEARS AGO Now ShengDa teachers are forbidden to work there.
You are recruiting for the schools and don't know who owns them? Because you are totally wrong about who "owns" them.
Tell me Tony, does Best have the legal right to hire foreigners? Do you care?
I have no need to get personal with you Tony.
To review what I said
1) You had an extremely low opinion about ShengDa, were always complaining about the place, until you found you could make money recruiting. Then you no longer complained about the place, calling it instead a working holiday.
2) Once the new teacher arrives, you will not be there to help, unlike Buckland who continues to offer services.
3) As you are demonstrating, you are basing things on what was true 3 years ago ...maybe, that are definitiely not true now.
4) You make promises, such as about Best not having teachers work weekends based on what you even call scratchy information |
I admit that the BEST advert is pretty scratchy because I am dealing with people who do not yet understand what sort of things are important to westerners
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5) And the last quote shows how convoluted you have become. ShengDa has a much worse understanding of what is important to westerners. Best has a full time foreigner as a "DOS" at Best. Why would they not be able to understand a westerners needs? Why is he not involved in this.
Tony you have a right to defend yourself. I made absolutely no comments on you as a person. You seem to have a need to do this. Why? What does me being in the Air Force or being "born again" (Your words) have anything to do with this
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So Chris, I�m not sure what your problem is, but for a start you could buy some regular clothes so you don�t frighten the young students quite so much, and stop blaming the rest of the world for your problems. I once referred to you using a certain fairly objectionable stereotype -- which certainly doesn�t apply to the overwhelming majority of your fellow countrymen that I have had the privilege of meeting -- and after your posts here on this topic, I certainly find no good reason to change it. The truth will out.
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Personal personal.
So, you don't like my none regular clothing? I am assuming he is referring to my Air Force coat i wore in the winter? This is relevant to this discussion? Wearing a BDU coat frightened my students Tony? How many of you out there believe this? Tony, this is not the place for tit for tat, but you are right, creating outrageous personal issues does distract from the main issue ...comparing you to Buckland, which was the point of my post.
Buckland whens hands down |
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tony lee
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 79
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:24 am Post subject: BEST Bilingual School -- approval # 413003 |
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| Tell me Tony, does Best have the legal right to hire foreigners? Do you care? |
BEST do have approval to employ foreign teachers. The 2004 approval number A2-413003 was published on Feb, 24th, 2004 in the "Da Hen Newspaper". I'm told if you can read Chinese, you will find that the list is surprising for the "famous" schools who do employ foreign teachers but who are not on the list.
I have been very vocal over several years (see the teflchinajob archives) about the dangers of coming to China on tourist visas to work illegally, and the stories on bulletin boards come up often enough to indicate that caution is still necessary. In China the rules are easily got around and apparently even the officials in Zhenzhou are getting a lot more "understanding". However these nod-and-a-wink arrangements are only good while the goodwill is kept replenished, so the best course is to get a z-visa and save yourself the hassles. Sure, sometimes there are very good reasons why paperwork is delayed, but at the very least my advice is to get something in writing from the school, and even from the PSB if possible, complete with lots of red stamps. A foreign teacher can be vulnerable enough at the best of times without the added risk that comes with being an illegal alien.
So -- yes I do care.
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| Best has a full time foreigner as a "DOS" at Best. Why would they not be able to understand a westerners needs? Why is he not involved in this. |
The DOS is Jenny Liu, a Taiwanese, so I'm not sure whether she is officially really a foreigner. I guess things do change as you said.
They do have two foreign teachers there at the moment but I am told they are just teachers with no administative duties.
Tony Lee |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 3:08 am Post subject: |
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Don't want to slur Best ...they did receive the right, and had their first legal foreign teacher this past September. I believe she has since left. There are about 100 legal schools in Henan (legal for hiring foreigners) and if anyone is ever in doubt they can check with the provincial waiban or provincial PSB (the provincial PSB encourages every foreigner to stop at their office, but the schools don't like this)
Best does expect the teacher to work weekends. That is definite from when i talked to them.
You don't have the choice where to work, but they will transport you (transportation time not on the clock).
They have a full time foreigner whose duties include administration and teaching. He has worked there for a while. |
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