Job Discussion Forums

Green Acres · Joined: 06 May 2009 Posts: 260

I have heard from many long-time expats in Vietnam, and this situation may blow over next week, and it may never. Nobody likes the labeling of an entire nation, but with respect to the government(s) of Vietnam -- they adhere to and exploit a racist agenda.

There are labor unions, and there is a teacher's union, but foreigners are not allowed to join it/them. Most unions are not representational of the members, but rather, of government concerns. The point about unions is that foreigners have no way of organizing any resistance to government policies.

The backlash has been in the mist for some time, since the economic crisis. Take for example the huge amount of FDI coming to the country over the past 10 years. Most of the companies who sent it this way have expected SOMETHING for their investment, but have received nothing. 86% of FDI was invested in real estate (and we know where that is going), instead of the parks, roads, bridges, hospitals, and other infrastructure necessary to make life in Vietnam better. The manner in which the Hanoi government has decided to come down on all foreigners -- not just those in teaching -- has solidified the idea that the Hanoi bunch are nothing but thieves and extortionists. Always have been, always were, and always will be. The idea of sending more FDI this way is a bad joke. Throw out the bathwater, the baby has become a mongoloid freak like the one in Lynch's Eraserhead.

Instead, the backlash from this action will prove that Malaysia, Indonesia, Cambodia, and Thailand are better investment areas for their longterm stability and better educated civil servants. It is shameful that the Vietnamese government is ignorant and cannot adhere to international standards. They are probationary WTO members, and it doesn't look as though they will join the rest. There are some companies who think they can become players in this market, but for most, the writing is on the wall and they will not be cominig en masse as they were before the crisis.

lucreziaborgia · Joined: 19 May 2009 Posts: 177

Green Acres, the Vietnam Government is anything but ignorant and I believe it would be preferable if you did not use this Forum to express your personal opinions about the Administration of a country in which all foreigners are guests.
It has nothing to do with any foreigner working here - except inconvenience and maybe disappointment - if the Government decides to change its foreign hire strategies. The same outcomes apply in any country of which one is not a citizen.
I am leaving Viet Nam tomorrow after several fulfilling and delightful years working with the people you have criticised. I have several months remaining on my Work Permit and I am happy to leave as I accept that my time here is now over. Many of the people who you have demonised are bi-lingual, extremely well educated, sophisticated and have lead lives that fill me with admiration and respect.

inky · Joined: 05 Jan 2009 Posts: 283 Location: Hanoi

Greenacres, what is racist about demanding that foreign workers comply with long-standing laws and get a Work Permit? Have you heard of the ongoing immigration debate in the US Congress? Do you know any Mexicans who can work in the US as freely as foreigners are able to work in Vietnam?

"I have heard from many long-time expats in Vietnam, and this situation may blow over next week, and it may never." I would advise anyone thinking about coming to Vietnam to teach that they should consider the possibility that these "long-term ex-pats" are the ones who spend all of their wages on De Tham Street every night, and that none of them has any clue as to what's actually going on. As lucrezia points out, your statements are very biased and based on gossip, and should thus be dismissed or at the very least taken with a huge chunk of salt by anyone browsing this forum for actual, factual information.

vit · Joined: 13 Jun 2009 Posts: 14

In what way is the visa/work permit agenda racist?

It discriminates in terms of qualifications and experience, not race. And those racist thieves and extortionists you describe are not coming down on all foreigners, only those that don't have, and never have had, a legal right to reside in this country. And it is their country, let's not forget.

If you are a qualified and/or experienced teacher working in a school which is authorised to employ foreigners, you will have few problems gaining a work permit and visa. This is no different from the immigration policies of most countries.

If you are not a qualified teacher ... maybe the party is over. And maybe not before time.

Jerullan · Joined: 31 Aug 2009 Posts: 19

inky · Joined: 05 Jan 2009 Posts: 283 Location: Hanoi

Jerulian, someone is not telling you the truth. If the school can't get you a WP, then there's something wrong with the school; apply to a school that can. If the school is telling you to get your own WP, then apply to a school that will get it for you. There's no reason to leave Vietnam, but there appears to be a reason to leave that school. They are going out of business, I assume?

vit · Joined: 13 Jun 2009 Posts: 14

Jerullan, what reason was given as to why you can't get work permits?

lucreziaborgia · Joined: 19 May 2009 Posts: 177

Some schools now state on their contracts that it is the teacher's responsibility to get a Work Permit. That advice is for teachers who are working part-time on a contract. That may well have always been the case for people working on part-time contracts.
If you have all the documentation in place and a contract from a school that is legally incorportated, you can apply for a Work Permit without depending on the school's facilitation.
If I were you, I would put the school on notice that I was going to apply for a Work Permit myself (without its help) afterall, if you have a contract from it (full-time or part-time) then you are entitled to do that. If the school tells you not to bother then you will know that you are not working with a school that values you. As well, you will know that it has no intention of safeguarding your rights as an employee and could also be regarded as behaving illegally. That is, if a school is offering contracts without the intention of honouring them by adhering to the employment laws of Vietnam, then it is operating illegally.
Simply put: you have to have a Work Permit to work in Vietnam legally.
It isn't a difficult concept to understand.

Jerullan · Joined: 31 Aug 2009 Posts: 19

First,

Inky and vit

I think the school I work at is not telling the truth. They just don't want to deal with it.

Obviously, I'm not revealing where I work. Others schools that are established and well-known are refusing to do anything whatsoever to assist or even give INFORMATION about how, where, and what steps to take to get a work permit.

I know people that have just arrived to teach who actually listened to the school and tried to do the foot work. They are lost, and don't even know where to go, or how to do it.

One new arrival from a nearby country with all of his documents and years of experience was told to "go to his embassy."

WTF?

Go to the embassy? For what?

Def · Joined: 09 Sep 2007 Posts: 58 Location: London

ajc19810 · Joined: 22 May 2008 Posts: 214

There will be a backlash, but it wont be of any grand scale, maybe a few angry foreigners mouthing off at the immigration department on their way to Bangkok. These guys dont care about esl teachers, it's small bickies. They are not fussed what happens to the people they have allowed to live here for years and now asking them to be on their way.

They will have enough teachers and if not they will continue with vietnamese teachers. They wont change their mind, its just a matter of waiting for someone to find a way around it (fingers crossed). Not too mention the influx of people who'll come here straight after graduation. Loads of experience there.

Work permits are not easy to get for everyone. So many of these schools are mom and pop operations and the guys at the top never really believed their schools would grow to such a large scale and have no idea, or perhaps no will to process wps.

I'm heading to Oz till this crap figures itself out.

Mushroom Druid · Joined: 19 Oct 2009 Posts: 91

Question:

I can only get a 1 month visa in Hanoi. I am working 7 days per week and pay taxes.

Can someone send me a PM about where to get a longer visa?

Thanks.

Green Acres · Joined: 06 May 2009 Posts: 260

It's their country. They have a right to steal anything they want, after all, they are the judge, jury, the cops and the border. This has been their MO since stealing the South in 1975.

Foreigners who have come here to live or set up shop or further their careers, did so in error. This government will not change, there are no democratic principles or processes in place, and therefore the future will be as the past was before. This is nothing new, and for a nation that is not multicultural, it is easy for their agenda to be racist, especially when it requires that all foreigners living in Vietnam, even by marriage, must attain a work permit. And it's not that enforcing the laws is racial, but that the result of the action creates a racial bias in favor of Vietnamese nationals. They will now "inheret" the work and property of others.

For twenty years they welcomed everybody in, and now they want everyone to leave. Okay, so a select few can stay, for a while. Some of you guys are apologists, and can not see the writing on the wall; as well, you don't have any understanding of history or the philosophy of the powers at be.

The message is simple: Don't expect anything from an investment in Vietnam. A foreigner will never be treated equally, never have equal rights of ownership or property, and will be the first to suffer at any economic downturn -- whether it be by policy or by theft. Some of you may not agree, and that is fine; some of you clearly do, which shows at least a bit of sense in the community.

snollygoster · Joined: 04 Jun 2009 Posts: 478

Recently I was assured I would get a 3 month visa extension, but because of the "difficulties" I would need to pay prime dollar. Did so.
Today, I get a phone call from a man claiming to be from the Immigration Office in HCMC, but he refused to give his name.
His "options" as he put them to me were:
1. Your current claim can not be processed
2. You can pay an extra $100 and "someone" will take the passport to the border and get a 3 month visa put in it
3. I could go to the border myself and do this, but I will need to take a day off work and lose money, and I will need to pay for travel and a visa to another country and hotel-easy to see his "offer" to get someone to go to the border and do this is the best option-agree?
4. I can get a 5 year visa for $300, but I have to either leave Vietnam every 3 months and come back in on a 3 month visa-This will be a multi entry visa, and of course, for a fee of about $50 each three months, I could arrange for "someone" to take the passport to the border and get it "stamped". Cheap considering I would be out of pocket like before if I did it myself. Agree?
5. I could get a resident card, but first I have to buy a house or property-of course I cant do that in my name, I would have to do it in a Viet's name, and there are plenty of other papers to present and its "difficult" but $1,200 should help with the "difficulties".
This would be renewed every 3 years (I thought you said 5 years-He he), but it would cost nothing to renew.
6. I could go abroad and from the time I come back in, I would have a 3 month visa and it would cost about $90 if I came back via an airport, and $120 if I came overland.
7. I could leave and never come back.
The Immigration Office spokesman talked about the "New Law" despite my pointing out that some foreigners claim this is an up dated enforcement of the old law. Oh no, this is a new law, I was assured.

I asked,"Do I need a work Permit?"
Answer "No-you dont.

No opinion expressed, just reporting what I was told.
Left hand and right hand?

lucreziaborgia · Joined: 19 May 2009 Posts: 177

GreenAcres, name a government that doesn't have the interests of its citizens as its priority.
Your comment about 'history and philosophy' cannot be be addressed in a manner that is constructive. Likewise, your comment that some foreigners who are working in Vietnam are apologists for the Government would seem to be based on hearsay perhaps; or preconceived notions. Have you ever worked with the Vietnamese Government?
Given that you believe you understand the motivation of the Vienamese Government (and such doesn't suit your expectations), I wonder why you don't leave.
Do you think your indignation and slurs against the Vietnamese Government will somehow ... change its mind ... and let you stay ... without you having to fulfill the legal requirements for a Work Permit?
I believe your own country will be the only one that doesn't demand you jump through hoops to work legally.