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Justice
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Hansen



Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 737
Location: central China

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:26 am    Post subject: Justice Reply with quote

Conflicts are a part of life. Most of us usually think we are right. We welcome an opportunity to get the facts out in the open for an objective evaluation. We expect this to lead to vindication.

The problem is that in China, everything is calculated to avoid that which many westerners desire--confrontation leading to resolution.

When there is a problem, it will usually be resolved behind the back of one of the parties. In the case of foreigners, it is almost always going to be resolved without input from the foreigner. Although you may expect a hearing, an opportunity to explain, etc., the matter will appear to have been resolved. It may seem as though there was never actually a problem.

Chances are the matter was resolved in a manner unfavorable to you. You will never have the opportunity to confront your accuser or hold someone accountable for incompetence, stupidity, dishonesty, whatever.

Although you may remain unaware, the Chinese grapevine will have the details of the problem and its resolution. You are the problem. You may sense marginalization, alienation, isolation, more than the usual.

When there is a conflict, the less powerful can not risk being associated with you, the source of the conflict. Of course, they have to remain in a work unit which you may leave. They have no options but to protect their own interests. The idea that they would risk their own situation over a matter of principle hardly enters their mind. The only principle worth suffering or risking for is the one that preserves their own interests.

Really, they can hardly be blamed for this attitude. Those who come here should be aware of this very real cultural difference.

For most foreigners,"justice" is something to be keenly remembered, not something to be expected, in China
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chinatwin88



Joined: 31 Aug 2009
Posts: 379
Location: Peking

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without specifics it is hard to agree or disagree. I have found, depending on your station in life, this is pretty much how it goes anywhere on this planet. I too subscribe to the aggression conflict and resolution model of problem resolution as I find that the Chinese will rarely want to pursue an issue if your loud enough and have a look of intended reprisal. The length of my stay, the careless way in which I condsider my position and the ease in which another can be acquired could be blamed for the animosity used as a weapon in resolution.
Most folks would rather not be involved in conflict, especially at the level and tone a foreigner can dish it out so they prefer the back door of resolution and private agreements. You as the outsider will always come out as the cause so why not live the accusation and declare a standing as to any and all problems that face the foreigner�s problem of fair treatment.
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Hansen



Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 737
Location: central China

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CT, It sounds as if intimidation is a factor in resolving the conflicts to which you refer. While useful at times, especially when money and a stranger are involved, I was thinking of more stable situations such as are found in a work unit, a place where one might expect fair play. Some FTs might even think they have enough guanxi to merit, if not justice, at least a hearing.
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chinatwin88



Joined: 31 Aug 2009
Posts: 379
Location: Peking

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A good offense is the first defense.

I wouldn�t expect fair play whether my work unit was in China or a position in the Employment Services of Florida. Fair doesn�t exist in work, even in union shops; I have worked as a teamster and the unfair atmosphere often foster by the union is comparable to the kangaroo review of Chinese work related infractions.


guanxi: It is my feeling that no foreigner and few Chinese really have guanxi and that it really doesn�t exist in any kind of sustainable aid that could benefit anyone over a period of time without leaving the recipient with obligation and beholding to who ever.

There is a thin line between fear and respect with the Chinese and setting the standard early on, avoiding friendly overtures (in fact a unfriendly face is a good start) and maintaining a cool distance will go farther in avoiding conflict of the nature you have mention.
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nobleignoramus



Joined: 17 Jul 2009
Posts: 208
Location: On the road

PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There certainly is a Chinese attitudinal aspect to resolving strife and quarrels, and that is by seeking to mediate first before you haul out your heavy artillery and train it on your opposite number. Altogether a reasonable approach, albeit not always suitable in our day and time. It worked best when communities were small and everybody knew each other. But in the 21st century you are thrown together with waidiren from all over China, and you are lucky if you know whether they are married or unmarried.

I think in the U.S. of A. litigation in courts has some strikingly similar features - juries, bargain pleas and so on - not exactlywhat the rest of us would associate with "fair justice", and yet it probably works sometimes satisfactorily.

What often is absent from problem solving is professionalism - the police and the courts. The handful of cases I have personally been involved in or have witnessed as a by-stander all excelled by being handled by people not willing to use the full range of vocational or professional tools at their disposal: The police letting off a burglar because the burglar has been cajoled into negotiating a "deal" with his victim, only for the victim to discover that the burglar suddenly feels so self-confident as to say "my father has 'friends' inthe P.S.B.!"
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vikuk



Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842

PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
and that is by seeking to mediate first before

I don't know if the poster of the above comment has ever been to China - but to be able to mediate on an even footing - the FT has to be pretty China-wise.
For those who've been through the mill - during those newbie days, maybe this employment situation is easier to recognize -

- Chinese boss who sits supreme and isolated from tardy no-thinking underlings who toil to make them rich

- trusted 1st underling, whoes job is to kow-tow to el-supremo and carry the never-to-be questioned decrees to the shop-floor

- Ignorant running dog FT who breaks all traditional rules and questions an order

- trusted 1st underling who tries every devious method to make FT obey the law the boss, and even goes through a sham negotiation with the full knowledge that their ass is on the line if they can't get FT to give up the gripe

- complicated situation where on one hand FT is trying to get what they feel owed and trusted 1st underling starting to think more about their future job prospects and the disastrous consequences of displeasing the master

In such situations - employment promises are broken - negotiation points become a pack a of lies - and China often turns into a confusing jungle where you feel you trust just about nobody.
Also remember - if you get your own way - the deed is never forgotten - which puts a lot of pressure on bonus or reimbursements that are due to paid at end of contract Idea

As for using courts as mediators during breach of FT contract - well I'm afraid gone are the days when the FT actually held any status in China, with their stay being linked to a meeting of cultures. At the moment in the new china, where class has reared its ugly head with a vengeance - FT's seem to rank just above the Africans who roam the streets of GZ. I'm sure it's gotta be pretty darn bad before you get a court to act - but then again if anybody can tell me otherwise I'll stand corrected.
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chinatwin88



Joined: 31 Aug 2009
Posts: 379
Location: Peking

PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a noble proposal:What often is absent from problem solving is professionalism - the police and the courts.

Like Perry Farrel said in the movie "The Gift", "When the cops get involved, everything gets f__kup".

Even though I can testify that the criminal courts seem to be pretty understanding, at least they have been in my case, I wouldn't expect the same from civil courts.
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nobleignoramus



Joined: 17 Jul 2009
Posts: 208
Location: On the road

PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah there is a poster that doubts that I have ever been to China, and yet selfsame poster has nothing to offer but fantastic hearsay plus a strong prejudiced opinion on Chinese bosses. Did he always fare poorly while working in China? Did he actually earn a living as a teacher?

Yes, I know we laowais are handicapped by being those foreign bodies that do not easily integrate into the Chinese social organism; it's not our fault, and it's not their fault, either.

But not every FT has to fight for their rights; and those that do fight do not necessarily have to lose their dignity or their job to get their rights recognised. I agree, though, that it's preferable to never have to seek arbitration because the odds are really stacked high against us.

Still, it's best to offer an opinion that is reinforced by at least some personal insight or experience.
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vikuk



Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842

PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
fantastic hearsay

Noble - when you gain a bit of China experience - you'll start to get a real hang on what goes down as typical employer/employee justice in China.

As for fantastic hearsay - on conditions out here and how we're treated by our bosses - well even the most experienced get bitten - I remember an old multi-thousand poster who, for a couple of years lauded over his kindy job, suddenly start to write how he'd suddenly been fired by unfair method for a trivial matter. There was no apparent justice in that case - this forum is littered with many similar stories Idea
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chinatwin88



Joined: 31 Aug 2009
Posts: 379
Location: Peking

PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since justice is melted out in seemingly arbitrary methods, it would be wise to consider "justice" as a procedural event and not simply of who won this round.

As to experience, each person will have a different one as it really depends on the way any problem encountered is dealt with and no China "old Hand" will be able to offer advice that is sure footed on the path of righteous intention. There are no experts in this field.
Laowais that consider this a handicapped is beaten already and it is an advantage not to belong; that is being one who does not easily integrate into the Chinese social organism leave you options of actions not open to the Chinese. Aggression is not easily interpreted by the those members of the red menace and it can be used to your advantage.
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nobleignoramus



Joined: 17 Jul 2009
Posts: 208
Location: On the road

PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikuk wrote:
Quote:
fantastic hearsay
- I remember an old multi-thousand poster who, for a couple of years lauded over his kindy job, suddenly start to write how he'd suddenly been fired by unfair method for a trivial matter. There was no apparent justice in that case - this forum is littered with many similar stories Idea


Your memory fails you badly; there are many known causes for loss of memory. It may be a medical condition. Or traumatic experiences. Whatever.

In the above case, I happen to know that he did NOT lose his "kindy" job. Rather, he quit in disgust for the reason you so eloquently described here (and describe so fulminatingly in every other post of yours): Unfair treatment.

Yes. It does happen. Many -probably most! - employers can take a rather selfish outlook in dealing with their FTs.

Does this surprise you?

Not me. Be philosophical about it, dear Vik!
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nobleignoramus



Joined: 17 Jul 2009
Posts: 208
Location: On the road

PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wish that posters such as Vik acqauint themselves with some readily-available facts, possibly through experience.

Although I am the first to denounce the inequities inherent in Chinese justice and those that administer it I feel some FTs treat it with an unreasonableamount of scepticism and disrespect.

I have my personal experience with Chinese "justice", and my experience can best be described as "mixed". Still, it wasn't absolutely "bad", and all things considered - I am the outsider, not the Chinese; I needed help with the language, not they, - it wasn't as "unfair" as it could be (and it sometimes is in China). As FTs we get red-carpet treatment in that our contracts are written in English, and SAFEA has English rules too. At the PSB some staff speak English and the regulations can be read in an English translation.

Now just try to put yourself in the shoes of a Chinese living in the U.K. or the U.S. of A....
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vikuk



Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842

PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In the above case, I happen to know that he did NOT lose his "kindy" job. Rather, he quit in disgust for the reason you so eloquently described here (and describe so fulminatingly in every other post of yours): Unfair treatment.

Yes. It does happen. Many -probably most! - employers can take a rather selfish outlook in dealing with their FTs

Oh come on old chap - after reading this
Quote:
those that do fight do not necessarily have to lose their dignity or their job to get their rights recognised

that first quote sounds like fantastic heresay Laughing Laughing Laughing
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dragon777



Joined: 05 Oct 2005
Posts: 163
Location: Christmas Island

PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hansen, most things are done the same in western countries. We just

choose to ignore because it because is not our concern or cause. I have

been involved in many legal cases and seen the wrong thing done by our

so called Magistrates and Judges. These are the people who we

intrust with great faith and monetary gain from the taxpayer.
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nobleignoramus



Joined: 17 Jul 2009
Posts: 208
Location: On the road

PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote=" wordsmith vikuk"][quote]
that first quote sounds like fantastic heresay quote]

And what, pray, does "heresay" mean?

Is that Vikspeak or Oxford English?
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