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mushroomyakuza
Joined: 17 Sep 2009
Posts: 140
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 Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:12 pm Post subject: Job offer from Saxoncourt - some questions, please help! |
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Hi all.
I've today had a job offer from Saxoncourt to begin work in Tokyo in March 2010 (is anyone else in the same position? Be good to make acquaintances before we go out).
Basically, the 55 page tome that they've sent me is generally quite straight forward but worded in legal-speak, and some of it is a little confusing as a result.
I'm a relative newbie, having only 6 weeks experience of teaching English to foreigners while in the UK, and have never taught abroad before. As it's such a big life change, I really want to go into this well prepared and would really appreciate any and all help from those of who have experience working with Saxoncourt.
I have lots of questions but I'll start off with just a few:
1) How many hours am I likely to be actually working for? Meaning, time in class each day? Do I get paid for the "break times" and times traveling between schools?
2) There seems to be a lot of conflicting info about holidays with Saxoncourt. For instance, on TEFL.com, under the Saxoncourt advert it says this:
"HOLIDAYS
SESJ provides around 6 weeks of paid annual leave, including national holidays, for all employees. This will normally include non-working periods of at least 7 days in spring, 8 days in summer and 15 days at Christmas/New Year."
but, then on the Shane Schools advert, it says this:
"Teachers will have about twenty-five days unpaid holidays per year."
AND this
"Teachers will have about seven weeks paid holidays per year!"
So, that's a hell of a lot of holiday - basically 5 weeks unpaid and 7 weeks paid...that cannot possible be right, can it? (PLEASE help with this one, seriously confusing).
And then, just to make it worse, in the contract/manual I've been sent, it says:
"A Teacher who has served in the Company for six (6) months will be given twenty (20) paid leave days. However, because of the special nature of school operation, 15 leave days exceeding the first five (5) days shall be incorporated into the Company�s special holidays specified in the above. Article 15 �Ⅲand taken simultaneously as scheduled in the Company�s annual schedule (calendar).
The first 5 days leave can be taken at the discretion of the Teacher. However, the Company may instruct the Teacher to move the period of leave to some other time if the Company judges that the paid leave taken would hinder the normal operation of Shane English School. "
I mean, really.
Can someone PLEASE clear this up for me? I'd be extremely grateful. Until this question's answered, I'll leave off the more complicated ones.
Many thanks |
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Hot-Carl
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:08 am Post subject: Re: Job offer from Saxoncourt - some questions, please help! |
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| mushroomyakuza wrote: |
| 1) How many hours am I likely to be actually working for? Meaning, time in class each day? Do I get paid for the "break times" and times traveling between schools? |
9 hours a day, but only paid for up to 5.5 hours of classtime a day plus 30 minutes of prep for a total of just under 30 hours of counted worktime each week. Breaktimes between classes and travel times are NOT counted. They do this so they can call you "full time" but give you part-time benefits. Most English jobs in Japan pull this immoral, but legally possible (sadly), stunt.
| Quote: |
2) There seems to be a lot of conflicting info about holidays with Saxoncourt. For instance, on TEFL.com, under the Saxoncourt advert it says this:
"HOLIDAYS
SESJ provides around 6 weeks of paid annual leave, including national holidays, for all employees. This will normally include non-working periods of at least 7 days in spring, 8 days in summer and 15 days at Christmas/New Year." |
Fancy wording. It is basically bullshit. That's 6 weeks counting every random day off through the year. It is definitely NOT annual leave in any definition of the word I have ever heard. Don't forget that they make you work about 2 weeks worth of unpaid 6 day weeks. They didn't mention that, did they?
| Quote: |
but, then on the Shane Schools advert, it says this:
"Teachers will have about twenty-five days unpaid holidays per year." |
That sounds more honest.
| Quote: |
AND this
"Teachers will have about seven weeks paid holidays per year!" |
More BS. You are paid a salary per month. In other words, this is a nice way of saying "we don't deduct pay for things like giving you some national holidays and Christmas holiday off".
[/uote]So, that's a hell of a lot of holiday - basically 5 weeks unpaid and 7 weeks paid...that cannot possible be right, can it? (PLEASE help with this one, seriously confusing).[/quote]It is not possible. They worded it like that to make the position look better than it is. You get a couple weeks at Christmas, a week or so in spring and another in August. Well, you used to. They have been chipping away at these for a few years now, and deducting a few 6 day weeks and saying that makes up for it (but don't mention that they added to the number of 6 day weeks just a few years ago).
| Quote: |
And then, just to make it worse, in the contract/manual I've been sent, it says:
"A Teacher who has served in the Company for six (6) months will be given twenty (20) paid leave days. However, because of the special nature of school operation, 15 leave days exceeding the first five (5) days shall be incorporated into the Company�s special holidays specified in the above. Article 15 �Ⅲand taken simultaneously as scheduled in the Company�s annual schedule (calendar). |
They are legally supposed to give you 10 days of leave at your choosing. However, they use a legal loophole to knock it down to 5. They say 20 initially because it makes the job seem better than it is. The other days are actually the company holidays, so they are meaningless.
| Quote: |
The first 5 days leave can be taken at the discretion of the Teacher. However, the Company may instruct the Teacher to move the period of leave to some other time if the Company judges that the paid leave taken would hinder the normal operation of Shane English School. "
I mean, really. |
Get used to it. This is normal operation lines they will continue to feed you, as most any job does. Learn to read between the lines and detect BS from jobs, because you'll get lots of it.
| Quote: |
| Can someone PLEASE clear this up for me? I'd be extremely grateful. Until this question's answered, I'll leave off the more complicated ones. |
I honestly tried!
There are some decent holiday periods that most other eikaiwa companies give. Shane gives 5 days of your choosing, most others give 10. Shane makes you work about 2 weeks worth of 6 day weeks in a year, but this is unheard of any pretty much any other job like this.
Do your research, apply to many places, and pick the best one for you depending on your options. Shane isn't really any worse than other places other than the two things I just mentioned, but they aren't really any better either.[/quote]
Last edited by Hot-Carl on Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mushroomyakuza
Joined: 17 Sep 2009
Posts: 140
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| Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:10 am Post subject: |
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thanks a lot for your reply, it's been very helpful.
however, there is still one thing i wanted clarifying:
| Quote: |
| Don't forget that they make you work about 2 weeks worth of unpaid 6 day weeks. They didn't mention that, did they? |
Maybe its just me but this is worded a little complicated...does this mean I work 12 unpaid days for them? Or does it mean I will have to work some cover and standby days as I have already been warned?
Sorry I'm just a little confused as to when I would be expected to do this "unpaid" work.
secondly,
| Quote: |
mushroomyakuza wrote:
1) How many hours am I likely to be actually working for? Meaning, time in class each day? Do I get paid for the "break times" and times traveling between schools?
9 hours a day, but only paid for up to 5.5 hours of classtime a day plus 30 minutes of prep for a total of just under 30 hours of counted worktime each week. Breaktimes between classes and travel times are NOT counted. They do this so they can call you "full time" but give you part-time benefits. Most English jobs in Japan pull this immoral, but legally possible (sadly), stunt. |
when you say 9 hours a day, are you counting just time in a classrom, or does this include travelling and break times? thanks for confirming they don't pay for break and travel times, i feared as much. basically you're saying, regardless of how many hours im in a classroom for, i only get paid for 6 hours each day? even though i may be working up to 9?
again, many many thanks for your help with this, much appreciated. newbies like me need to know what they're getting into! if you're worried your post might get deleted (as I've heard some people say Shane mod these forums) please just PM me.
thanks |
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ShioriEigoKyoushi
Joined: 21 Aug 2009
Posts: 364
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:26 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by ShioriEigoKyoushi on Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mushroomyakuza
Joined: 17 Sep 2009
Posts: 140
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| Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:42 am Post subject: |
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Shiori
thanks for the reply. this does help some. i'm glad, but confused, to hear the standby system is gone - I had an interview just this past wednesday where my interviewer told me about the stand by system, and he seemed very much under the impression it was still in effect?
Do you work for Shane/Saxoncourt? Is working for one better than the other (are they even different? I still don't fully understand this).
| Quote: |
| Initially you'll probably have 3-4hr (teaching) days with the odd 5hr day, then later you'll be up to 5-6hr days for most of your week with the odd 3.5-4.5hrs on one or two days. The school regs say you can't be onsite for more than 9 hours, so expect to be onsite for about 9 hours most days as they will get as much as they can from you. This 9 hrs includes prep time - you must be onsite 1hr before the first class, and you're paid for half of that time. |
just let me understand - even if i'm working only 3-4 hours of in-classroom teaching, i'd then be expected to spend the rest of the day at the office, doing prep? so essentially, i would be working 9 hours a day, and only getting paid for...how much of it? does it depend on the hours i'm teaching?
sorry guys if i'm being dim, but i was under the impression that once i'd done my lessons for the day i was free to go home and do my prep on my own time. is this not the case?
again, many many thanks for any and all replies |
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mushroomyakuza
Joined: 17 Sep 2009
Posts: 140
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| Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:46 am Post subject: |
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Shiori
thanks for the reply. this does help some. i'm glad, but confused, to hear the standby system is gone - I had an interview just this past wednesday where my interviewer told me about the stand by system, and he seemed very much under the impression it was still in effect?
Do you work for Shane/Saxoncourt? Is working for one better than the other (are they even different? I still don't fully understand this).
| Quote: |
| Initially you'll probably have 3-4hr (teaching) days with the odd 5hr day, then later you'll be up to 5-6hr days for most of your week with the odd 3.5-4.5hrs on one or two days. The school regs say you can't be onsite for more than 9 hours, so expect to be onsite for about 9 hours most days as they will get as much as they can from you. This 9 hrs includes prep time - you must be onsite 1hr before the first class, and you're paid for half of that time. |
just let me understand - even if i'm working only 3-4 hours of in-classroom teaching, i'd then be expected to spend the rest of the day at the office, doing prep? so essentially, i would be working 9 hours a day, and only getting paid for...how much of it? does it depend on the hours i'm teaching?
sorry guys if i'm being dim, but i was under the impression that once i'd done my lessons for the day i was free to go home and do my prep on my own time. is this not the case?
again, many many thanks for any and all replies |
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ShioriEigoKyoushi
Joined: 21 Aug 2009
Posts: 364
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:56 am Post subject: |
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Text deleted
Last edited by ShioriEigoKyoushi on Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: Job offer from Saxoncourt - some questions, please help! |
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| Hot-Carl wrote: |
| They are legally supposed to give you 10 days of leave at your choosing. However, they use a legal loophole to knock it down to 5. |
And what loophole would that be? First time I've heard of that in a dozen years of working here.
BTW, those 10 days are obligated by law after the first 6 months of working for them. If they decide to give anything to you before then, it's their own choice, not law. |
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mushroomyakuza
Joined: 17 Sep 2009
Posts: 140
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| Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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thanks for the replies.
does that mean i'll have no holidays until i'm six months in?
so, typically, how big are the gaps between lessons? would some of you mind giving me a couple of examples of a daily schedule? just to get a good outline.
i was also told classes don't go beyond 55 minutes. is this right? does this really allow much oppertunity for learning for the students? |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| mushroomyakuza wrote: |
does that mean i'll have no holidays until i'm six months in?
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It means that you cannot ask for paid days off within the first 6 months of your contract. If you get sick in the initial 6 months, you will likely find that you go unpaid on those days off too.
You will get national holidays or company holidays which will be paid. It doesn't matter if these fall within the first 6 months. So if you get the job and start March/April, your first short break will probably be Golden Week. And it's likely your summer break will come inside the 6 months too (though I don't know if this will be paid time off).
| Quote: |
| i was also told classes don't go beyond 55 minutes. is this right? does this really allow much oppertunity for learning for the students? |
Studies have shown that after 45 mins, students' concentration levels start falling rapidly. So having them much longer, doesn't necessarily mean that you'll be able to teach them much more. Even when I was at uni in the UK and in Europe, with the exception of elective language studies (not necessarily for academic purposes) and ab nitio courses (which were intensive study courses), a single language lesson was only 50 mins long.
Even in public schools here, lessons are 45/50 mins. So 55 mins actually sounds a little on the long side. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| seklarwia wrote: |
| Studies have shown that after 45 mins, students' concentration levels start falling rapidly. |
I've even seen reports that the attention span lasts only 15-20 minutes. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| seklarwia wrote: |
| Studies have shown that after 45 mins, students' concentration levels start falling rapidly. |
I've even seen reports that the attention span lasts only 15-20 minutes. |
That is true if you have to do one activity for the entire period. But normally if there is some variety to break things up a little, you can get them to concentrate a little longer  |
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Hot-Carl
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| mushroomyakuza wrote: |
thanks a lot for your reply, it's been very helpful.
however, there is still one thing i wanted clarifying:
| Quote: |
| Don't forget that they make you work about 2 weeks worth of unpaid 6 day weeks. They didn't mention that, did they? |
Maybe its just me but this is worded a little complicated...does this mean I work 12 unpaid days for them? Or does it mean I will have to work some cover and standby days as I have already been warned? |
This is referring to the stand-by/cover days. They got rid of stand-by days recently, so it's just cover days. They tell you it's paid as it's written in your contract, but find me another company that makes you work an extra day a week once a month or more without paying you extra. For all practical purposes, it's unpaid. I'm not sure on the exact number of days, to be honest. I think it was 18 for first-year teachers last year, but it was 13 before that and I think they're changing it again. I'm pretty sure that, either way, it's over 12 days a year!
| Quote: |
| Sorry I'm just a little confused as to when I would be expected to do this "unpaid" work. |
There will be a schedule that comes out before the end of each month lists which teachers are working where and when. Hopefully it's a school less than an hour away from your home...
secondly,
| Quote: |
| thanks for confirming they don't pay for break and travel times, i feared as much. basically you're saying, regardless of how many hours im in a classroom for, i only get paid for 6 hours each day? even though i may be working up to 9? |
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Technically speaking, they tell you that you don't need to be in the school when you're not teaching aside from the 30 minutes of prep time they assign you at the start of each work day. You can read a book, play video games, go to an internet cafe and look at naughty pictures... anything you want. Realistically though, a lot of this "break" time is between classes. If you've got 20 minutes between classes, what are you going to do? Most people I know would be preparing for their next class, and Shane knows damn well this is the case, yet... it's unpaid so that they can avoid putting you at the 30 hour mark that seems to be the cut off point for the government investigating companies for not giving their employees proper work benefits (health insurance, pension, etc.). Instead of helping employees pay into the national health/pension system, they put them on travel insurance. You can request not to be put on their company travel insurance, but they're very prone to "forgetting" that you aren't on it and deducting insurance costs from your cheque anyway. Make sure you pay attention to your pay stubs!
With regards to the timing of the 30 minutes prep time, they require that you show up for this at the start of your shift. For example, if your shift is 12-9, but your first class isn't until 4, you STILL are told to show up at 12, "prep" until 12:30, and then do whatever you want until your class starts at 4. That 10 minutes between your 6pm and 7pm classes that you want to go over your teaching notes for? That's your free time and is unpaid. Shane is NOT the only company that does this. It's run of the mill in Japan, the country of "respect" and "honour". Bitter? Yup, but at least you've heard how it really is now.
| Quote: |
| again, many many thanks for your help with this, much appreciated. newbies like me need to know what they're getting into! if you're worried your post might get deleted (as I've heard some people say Shane mod these forums) please just PM me. |
I don't care if it's deleted or not. Myself or someone else will just repost something similar when the next person asks about *insert eikaiwa/dispatch company name here*.
You're welcome![/i] |
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Hot-Carl
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| mushroomyakuza wrote: |
thanks for the replies.
does that mean i'll have no holidays until i'm six months in?
so, typically, how big are the gaps between lessons? would some of you mind giving me a couple of examples of a daily schedule? just to get a good outline. |
Typical day:
Thursday:
12.00 -come in at 12 to "prep" for 30 minutes, but actually prep until your first class at 1.
1.00-1.55 -teach some housewives/retired salarymen
2.00-2.45 -teach a couple more housewives
3.00-6.00 -no classes, but you live too far from your Tuesday school to go home... so you play some Nintendo DS, read a bit, do anywhere from a 1/2 hour to 2 hours of prep for your evening classes (depending on how comfortable you are with teaching... notice how you're WELL about your 30 mins of prep time already?) and try talking to the receptionist whose English level is something like "How are you doing?" "I go shopping yesterday on the department store".
6.00-6.55 -teach a group of 6 cute elementary school kids (you feel happy)
7.00- 7.55 -teach a group of 6 bratty and couldn't give a toss 12-year old boys who'd rather fight with each other and go through your handbag when you're not looking that do what you'd planned for (you feel suicidal)
8.00- 9.00 -teach an hour-long private lesson to the most boring salaryman in existence. He gives 1-word answers the entire class, even though his level is intermediate.
Friday
1.00- 2.00 -prep for your classes (30 mins of prep? what's that?)
2.00- 2.55 -housewives/retired salarymen
3.30- 4.15 -private lesson with some lovely lady who tells you interesting stories the whole time
4.15- 5.10 -teach a group of sometimes fun/sometimes crying kindergarten kids
5.10- 6.10 -teach a one-hour private lesson with a very serious lawyer studying for an IELTS English exam. He expects you to be well prepared for the lesson, and has a history of complaining to management if he thinks the teacher wasn't adequately prepared.
6.15- 7.05 -teach a group of high school students (kind of fun, but you just free talk because you haven't had a chance to prep for this class in 3 months)
HUGE BREAK TIME!
9.30- 10.00 -a 30 minute private lesson with a busy salaryman who rarely shows up because he's so busy. Unfortunately, he never calls to say he'll be absent so you have to wait until nearly 10 to go home anyway when you realistically could've went home at 7.05 after cleaning up. Since your Friday school is an hour train ride from your home station, you don't get home until nearly 11.30pm.
Saturday
9.00- 10.00 prep
10.00- 10.45 -teach a couple of 8 year old kids.
12.00- 3.00 -teach a 3 hour intensive course on how to write the TOEIC test
3.15- 4.00 -teach a really cool university student.
4.00 EARLY FINISH! YAY! Do whatever it is your do on Saturday night.
Perhaps your days off are Sunday and Wednesday, so add another similar day on Tuesday.
| Quote: |
| i was also told classes don't go beyond 55 minutes. is this right? |
If they told you that, they were lying. REGULAR group classes do not go beyond 55 minutes. Some students take 2 classes back-to-back. Not common, but it happens. If the student has two 1 hour private classes (yes, those exist and are longer than 55 mins), then you've got a 2 hour private class. Also, notice my Saturday example. There are "intensive" lessons which could be anywhere from 1.5 hours to 3 hours. Did they forget to mention that?
| Quote: |
| does this really allow much oppertunity for learning for the students? |
By itself? Not much. Kids actually do improve over time, and you'll notice this. For adults, they need to be self-motivated and do work on their own in addition to class. Classes are very expensive, so very few students take more than 1 a week. |
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Hot-Carl
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: Job offer from Saxoncourt - some questions, please help! |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| Hot-Carl wrote: |
| They are legally supposed to give you 10 days of leave at your choosing. However, they use a legal loophole to knock it down to 5. |
And what loophole would that be? First time I've heard of that in a dozen years of working here. |
Now you've heard it!
The company does have to give 10 days off of your choosing, BUT 5 can be legally decided by the company IF the employee, or a group representing the teachers (ie. union or, in Shane's case, "teachers' representatives") approve the company to delegate 5 of the 10 days. Until a few years ago, they gave NONE of the 10 days holidays. Someone took legal action against them and the folded... partly (meaning folded on 5/10 days). Interestingly, they didn't start appointing teachers' representatives until AFTER they decided to only let teachers choose 5 of the 10 days. Illegal? Yes, I'm pretty damn sure it was... but you know as well as I do that nothing is likely to come of it.
Some small eikaiwas/jukus give NO holidays; completely ignoring the law. Hell, some large Japanese companies do this (and with overtime)! But, you already know that. |
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