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Never Ceased To Be Amazed
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 3500
Location: Shhh...don't talk to me...I'm playin' dead...
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 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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At least it's NOT a negative report! Good on ya!
NCTBA: Now that's a spicy meatball!  ...  ... |
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rjbsd
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 53
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Never Ceased To Be Amazed wrote: |
At least it's NOT a negative report! Good on ya!
NCTBA: Now that's a spicy meatball! ... ... |
Negative is good, positive is bad  |
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tacomaboywa
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 194
Location: The Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
I believe the universities and institutions that have resorted to recruiters made and are making a big mistake. And I also believe that the switch took place not so much (if at all) from "necessity" as from what could be called "the usual suspects": laziness, incompetence, inefficiency, and the inclination to pass along work that isn't appealing (i.e. any and all of it) to someone who's willing to do it for a fee.
Any thoughts?
Regards,
John |
John, I think you're right about the cause of the rise of recruiters in KSA. "The usual suspects" as you put it is an underlying problem throughout the Kingdom.
In regards to Skyline, what I have read about them they seem to be much better then many of the other recruiters out there. However, I would avoid any of the recruiters and stick with a direct hire only. That's just my opinion.
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Avoid M-Trading
http://www.tulbah.org/ |
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lazycomputerkids
Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Posts: 360
Location: Tabuk
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
Dear lazycomputerkids.
A couple of things that I've learned while tutoring him is that in order to be successful, a business model MUST be (among other things, but these are paramount) flexible and transparent.
And that is precisely where I believe that the Saudi recruiters' business models fail; they seem to me to be neither.
I believe the universities and institutions that have resorted to recruiters made and are making a big mistake. And I also believe that the switch took place not so much (if at all) from "necessity" as from what could be called "the usual suspects": laziness, incompetence, inefficiency, and the inclination to pass along work that isn't appealing (i.e. any and all of it) to someone who's willing to do it for a fee.
Any thoughts?
Regards,
John |
The usual suspects are not a compelling argument for me as an explanation of the rise of contractors in education. Do the usual suspects exist? Most certainly. Do they support a trend? I'm unconvinced, as I said, this trend is not, in my opinion, isolated to Saudi Arabia. Is Saudi Arabia's culture prone to a delineation of socio-economic class more stark than an average? Immigrant labor would bear out such a characterization.
Arguing against myself, drawing a parallel between the United States and Saudi Arabia lends support to the usual suspects. The United States is characterized by immigrant neighborhoods and labor. By the end of the real-estate bubble, the regulation of an undocumented will to work could not have been more lax. Residential maintenance and home "improvement" in the United States resulted in an enormous wave of immigration.
Wanda Sykes put it best with jokes about the least scrutinized member of society in America. A Latino with a leaf blower. We all just get out of their way. The usual suspects readily apply an expectation of a quality of labor while resisting the labor itself. The usual suspects might also be included in an examination of Class and its attending conflicts.
The dominant force, that I see, is scale. Scalability. Will it scale? Was/Is a constant concern for a business involving the Internet. Can a service provided for ten clients maintain continuity for a hundred? Or X^y? Business on the Internet provides an accelerated, extreme demonstration for a problem, growth, that has always been with us.
Born in 1967, my attention was drawn by the provision of social services in the United States, that during the 90s, was increasingly contracted to incorporated endeavor. "Wait a second," I thought. "Taxes are collected to do this or that and now those taxes will be rewarded to interests motivated to increase profits?"
And yet this same strategy had always been employed by our nation's defense and NASA. But social service was of the government's domain precisely because the nature of social service does not lend itself to the investors of Wall Street and its Reserve. Lincoln and FDR be damned, that a social service can be commodified currently prevails in the halls of academe and government. I find it particularly amusing, and likely disingenuous, proponents of insurance interests speak of their vehicle in terms of "sharing the risk" in a society clearly demarcated by Class.
The conundrum persists , but it was fueled by government departments claiming to be overwhelmed due to scale, growth. How a quality of service will be managed, whether through government oversight or a "free" market, is presently the core of the health care debate. Or rather, these concepts are presented as the core. Actual experience in the matter presents a mixture of the two and a complex scenario of actors and agents vying for which philosophy will dominate their respective tasks.
Perhaps I've provided too much backdrop, but a rise in contractors in Saudi Arabia is an indicator, to me, of an increased need and a diversification of solution. |
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lazycomputerkids
Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Posts: 360
Location: Tabuk
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| tacomaboywa wrote: |
In regards to Skyline, what I have read about them they seem to be much better then many of the other recruiters out there. However, I would avoid any of the recruiters and stick with a direct hire only. That's just my opinion.
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Avoid M-Trading
http://www.tulbah.org/ |
In /. parlance that's a +1 Informative. I completely agree a direct hire is superior to the risks of a recruiting market given the practices of M-Trading. May the unsuspecting discover your post. And yet, a recruiting market facilitated my employment. The ESL profession has sought metrics to distinguish itself from "back-packers" and classroom monitors since I joined TESOL in 1990. But in nearly 20 years, what progress can be claimed is tenuous if a recruitment criteria succeeds without metrics such as CELTA. I blame curricula package promoters and the test makers. Mostly test makers. There's no greater sham artist working in education than a test maker. Evaluation is one part obscurity and one part obfuscation and curricula creators lurk about their shadows. I'm looking at you, Princeton. Your hide & peek about the clozure has bought one too many pensions.
A direct hire would seem the "best" practice but my ability would likely have been ignored by academia's obsession with a degree and its gradation. I would have been in line behind an MA despite their ability. |
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Grendal
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 861
Location: Lurking in the depths of the Faisaliah Tower underground parking.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 12:06 am Post subject: |
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I concur with lazycomputerkids. I do not have the opportunity yet to be a direct hire (no MA) but my employment was secured through a recruiter. Yes I wish I could get those positions but in the meantime my experience is accumulating. What I want to know and have been asking my colleagues is: Can I be a better teacher if I finish a MA in a related field?
Does experience count as much as credentials? Does a PhD holder have better abilities in classroom management and methodology than a teacher with years of experience?
Unfortunately it seems that the only way that Saudi universities can fill their ranks with EFL instructors is through recruiters. They can only hire MA holders and up as direct hires and since very few people with these credentials actually apply they contract out their teaching positions to recruiters who are not limited by this criterion.
Grendal |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:15 am Post subject: |
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Dear Grendal,
"Can I be a better teacher if I finish a MA in a related field?"
Probably - but that would depend on you.
"Does experience count as much as credentials?"
To employers, especially in the ME, no. In "real life", again it depends on the individual.
"Does a PhD holder have better abilities in classroom management and methodology than a teacher with years of experience?"
Some do, some don't - once more it depends on the individual.
Personally, I'd tend to give more value to years of experience than paper credentials, provided those years of experience were backed up by glowing recommendations.
There are people with "years of experience" who are lousy teachers, and there are people with great credentials who are wonderful teachers.
And vice verse.
But the bottom line in the ME is this: if you want a well-paying, satisfying job, your chances of getting one are ever so much better if you have the credentials - and some experience.
Regards,
John |
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saharastars
Joined: 30 Sep 2009
Posts: 107
Location: Wonderland
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:28 am Post subject: |
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Yep but sometimes both experience AND credentials dont count for much; that is if you are female. I have been offered some appaling contracts, low pay and silly terms, aparently people are desperate at the moment and will take anything.
How about this;
7 years post CELTA experience
MA in Applied Linguistics/ TESOL ( from an Ivy League University)
WAS OFFERED JUST SHY OF 10,000 sr per month.... |
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tacomaboywa
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 194
Location: The Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:32 am Post subject: |
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| saharastars wrote: |
Yep but sometimes both experience AND credentials dont count for much; that is if you are female. I have been offered some appaling contracts, low pay and silly terms, aparently people are desperate at the moment and will take anything.
How about this;
7 years post CELTA experience
MA in Applied Linguistics/ TESOL ( from an Ivy League University)
WAS OFFERED JUST SHY OF 10,000 sr per month.... |
Now that was an offensive offer based on your qualifications.
---------------
Avoid M-Trading
http://www.tulbah.org/ |
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omerta777
Joined: 06 Nov 2009
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:11 am Post subject: hi |
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saharastars, with your credentials who should have negotiated for a hell of alot more money like 14000 or 16000 or more. thats a huge insult to you.
Im making only 11000 SR a month with a MA TESOL with a lot less years of experience and I have no Middle East experience. I probably could have gotten 12000 or maybe 13000 SR. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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Dear saharastars,
Almost certainly your being female was at least part of the reason for such an insulting offer.
However, discrimination in the Kingdom is not only gender-based. I've also known of instances where perfectly qualified teachers (male "native-speakers") who had passports from "second-tier" English-speaking countries (e.g. South Africa) were offered and given lower salaries.
Discrimination is never explainable rationally, but this one seems to me to be even crazier than the usual weirdness (if that's possible.)
Regards,
John |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| saharastars wrote: |
How about this;
7 years post CELTA experience
MA in Applied Linguistics/ TESOL ( from an Ivy League University)
WAS OFFERED JUST SHY OF 10,000 sr per month.... |
Well, the above offer is for candidates (male or female) with no blue/green eyes, no white skin (colour of milk! ), and not holding the red/blue passport! If you hold the red/blue passport and your eyes colour are not blue/green eyes, and your backgorund is from one the third world countries, then you will be discriminated in the Magic Kingdom even if you have 20 years of experience plus an MA in Applied Linguistics and another MA in public relation! |
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BillCowher
Joined: 21 Aug 2009
Posts: 131
Location: Up in the air!!!
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:46 am Post subject: I'm happy that my son will not face this dilemna. |
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My son was born this Halloween Day and will have 2 passports, American and Filipino. He will never have to worry about coming to the Middle East because the oil will be gone by the time he graduates from college. Of course all the expats from the US & The Philippines will be back home competing for real jobs. The military may have jobs fighting all the disaffected Saudis who realize the west has everything & they have an empty desert with no more oil.
| 007 wrote: |
| saharastars wrote: |
How about this;
7 years post CELTA experience
MA in Applied Linguistics/ TESOL ( from an Ivy League University)
WAS OFFERED JUST SHY OF 10,000 sr per month.... |
Well, the above offer is for candidates (male or female) with no blue/green eyes, no white skin (colour of milk! ), and not holding the red/blue passport! If you hold the red/blue passport and your eyes colour are not blue/green eyes, and your backgorund is from one the third world countries, then you will be discriminated in the Magic Kingdom even if you have 20 years of experience plus an MA in Applied Linguistics and another MA in public relation! |
My son |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:56 am Post subject: Re: I'm happy that my son will not face this dilemna. |
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| BillCowher wrote: |
| My son was born this Halloween Day and will have 2 passports, American and Filipino. |
Well, because of your son holding two passports of two different sovereign sates, he might face another type of complex dilemma? And his dilemma is what happen in case his two allegiances (USA vs Philippines) come into conflict (in case of war!), where do you think your son will put his allegiance, is it with Uncle Sam or Tante Gloria Arroyo?
USA allegiance laws are very strict in this, he might be accused of treason and put under the electrical chair! |
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omerta777
Joined: 06 Nov 2009
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:26 pm Post subject: hello |
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Bill Cowher wrote:
Of course all the expats from the US & The Philippines will be back home competing for real jobs.
At least its a job and the expats are getting paid a salary. Who cares which country or what the circumstances are. There are millions of Americans and others unemployed around the world. Who are you to criticized the fake or realness of foreign ESL teaching job????
Do you have any idea how muh we depend on the Middle East for oil??? its not going to dry up in our lifetime or youre son's lifetime. |
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