Job Discussion Forums

[three_decades]

[Chris_Crossley]

Don't be too harsh or critical of people who post on this forum. The plain fact is that you don't know either us or the lay of the land in terms of going abroad and teaching there, nor do we know you or your particular circumstances apart from what you have told us here, so please do not take offence.

Those of us posting here are usually people who can give some solid advice based on our personal experiences of living and working abroad for a considerable sum of years. In my case, I have been living and working in China for eight years so I know a little bit about what might happen if you were to come to China, which you mentioned as being a possible country you might want to go to.

If you have very little teaching experience and no bachelor's degree (I know you've mentioned you have two AA degrees), you will find that you might only be able to take jobs that pay the lowest amount of money and no private chain language school, college or university (whether privately- or publicly-funded) may necessarily make allowances for even one child, never mind three, and you may find yourself struggling financially.

Furthermore, no educational institution may necessarily make allowances for the fact that you are a mother of three and may have to accept fairly long hours of work, including at the evenings and at weekends.

You say that you would be fine if a nanny were to look after your kids during the day, though, in my experience, where I am, one would be thinking usually of members from an extended family or a friend of a friend. In China, family still means a great deal and I married into an extended family myself in 2002, resulting in my now being a father of two kids, the younger one having been born just two days ago.

My 5-year-old daughter is attending a local Chinese kindergarten during the day (and has been doing for more than 2 years now) and members of my extended Chinese family will look after the newborn baby boy once my wife returns to work after her 15-week maternity leave. We also employ a housemaid to do the cooking and the cleaning for us, but she'll have no responsibility for looking after the child.

In China, having connections can make life a lot easier and we would have found everything a struggle were it not for the fact that my wife's family is replete with relatives, including 60+ year-old grandparents, great-aunts and -uncles, who can help out as and when necessary. Without those family connections, one might find it difficult to cope with looking after three children in China (and I am being generally factual here); indeed, the Chinese would think it somewhat bizarre for a woman to have three children to support without a partner or husband, but this is because Chinese culture and life perspectives are vastly different from those based on European cultures.

[three_decades]

Hey, thank-you for your insight about China, I really appreciate it. And congrats on the new baby!! Your family support system there really does sound ideal.

Before my divorce, I had fully intended on writing my own curriculum and homeschooling my children at least until 4th grade, so the insinuation that I would be throwing my children's education needs to the wind to fulfill my itch to travel, rubbed me the wrong way. I think the public education system in my state is lousy btw. I'll try to grow a thicker skin next time

As I mentioned in my OP, I'm not even thinking about leaving the states for at least 3 years because I am going to finish my BA and possibly an MA as well... and I will look into obtaining a TEFL cert too.

It is something I feel I would love to do, but if in the end, it doesn't appear doable, then I will just move on to something else, kwim? I do try to fight for what I prefer, but it definitely isn't do or die. I do put the welfare of my children first.

I have no family support, even in this country. I unfortunately have had to rely on state assistance to help pay the ridiculously high cost of childcare while I work. Even then, I have lost several jobs for missing too many days due to sick children. There is no way I can afford a US nanny or au pair.

So, I have been thinking on the pros and cons of working in another country... if I could be doing something I like to do, in a place where I want to be, with fresh air and fresh food, able to afford a living and some live in help for the boys while they also get to experience a new culture -- wow that would be awesome. Maybe it's a pipe dream according to some, but *if* I could find something like the above, it seems practical enough to me.

[anyway]

First of all, let me say how much I respect single parents wherever they are. You all are my heroes and that was even before I had two of my own (but not on my own)...

I know you've probably been all through this before, but why anthropology? A teaching cert (English or even social studies) is going to be much better for a teaching career (adults or children). There are already lots of MAs out there, with and without experience. That cost/benefit analysis doesn't look good from my perspective. Yes, in ESL/EFL any degree will do, but the teaching cert will allow you to take the best jobs in any country although there is still the catch 22 of a little experience under the belt. Your degree program practicum might suffice. There are always some small private K-12s which don't require certs to cut your teeth and get those first couple years...

Wow, Spanish, English, AND Chinese! You can communicate with most of the globe! How cool is that?! With a teaching cert (and endorsements) and those three, you're teaching prospects are tripled, I would say, not too mention translation work, editing, etc. Have a look at langorang dot com for that stuff...

I know you said you don't want to teach kids, but even many (most?) overseas jobs require some classes with young learners. I am the same way. I don't want to teach adults and it really limits me to universities and business environments. Corporate teaching might lead to editing and translation as well...

I would suggest Vietnam and Mexico. They both have lots of opps which probably won't change in 3 years time. Your other language skills will benefit you and child care will be easy. Mexico might get the nudge simply because your kids might acculturate better, but Vietnam probably pays relatively more. Just my two cents worth...

[three_decades]

[anyway]

Glad to hear it. Done my heavy lifting for the day...

I hear you. We've got to consider our own preferences, aptitudes, and interests to make a smart career choice. I guess I am thinking about the best possible option, to give yourself the widest possible variety of options.

An undergrad in any degree will get you teaching jobs abroad (although some folks find work without one!), but language teachers should have a degree in that language. A certificate makes your chances marginally better. An MA is necessary for teaching uni in the states, but it doesn't guarantee you that much more money abroad. I got mine because I knew it would move my app to the top of the stack because I already had 5 years experience.

If I had it to do over, I would do my grad degree in Instructional Technology or something more valuable than a vanilla MA Tesol. For example, there are master's programs to get certified in the subject of the undergrad degree(s). (Mine was in Journalism, but I could add endorsements in other subjects.) Such a degree would satisfy the requirements of many university ESL jobs around the world and allow me to teach K-12 as well, stateside or abroad. That's the whole enchilada (except for stateside uni jobs, which are highly coveted, very difficult to land, etc).

What I'm thinking is not only do international schools pay much much better than the typical institute (plus provide schooling opps for your kids), but they allow you to actually reside and work legally in a country unlike some english teaching jobs. I'm thinking specifically of Latin America but also Vietnam. Long-term expatriation does depend primarily on money (especially for families) but also legal, social, and linguistic variables. Once you're settled into a country in all of these ways, especially legally, then many doors will be open that are closed to the regular English teacher.

[lostdegaine]

Have you considered working for the Defense Language Institute in San Antonio? As a veteran, you would receive preference in hiring. There is another poster here who ensures us it�s the best job in EFL. Also, there is a possibility for short term contracts overseas in many different places. I don�t know if they allow accompanying family members though.

[Glenski]

[Justin Trullinger]

I'm in Ecuador at the moment- can't speak for Mexico, but suspect there will be some similarities.

I suggested that private schools would be necessary for a variety of reasons-

Public schools here are massively underfunded. There simply aren't public school places for all, or even the majority of Ecuadorian kids. Foreign kids, therefore, aren't eligible for public school places. You might be willing to put them in a public school, though I think if you'd seen them like I have, you wouldn't be. Even if you don't worry about classroom overcrowding (40 to 60 not uncommon), bad hygiene, absent teachers, lack of supervision...you still won't have the chance. The Ecuadorian government doesn't offer public education to children of temporary foreign residents.

Also, only the highest end of private schools do much by way of English. Your kids will probably pick up Spanish quickly enough, but putting them into a completely Spanish speaking environment tends to cause considerable negative stress. Again, I've seen this done, in both directions- putting your kids into a completely foreign environment with nobody they can communicate with in the beginning just isn't advisable, especially not in the tender years you're talking about.

And...you're required to have them in school. Though this isn't often enforced, especially for the poorer sectors of society, full-time education is mandatory through age 16. You CAN avoid this if you present a homeschooling proposal, but the ministry of education feels that homeschooling is a full-time occupation. A homeschooling proposal, to be accepted, requires a full time commitment from one parent. They won't accept homeschooling if the primary "teacher" is otherwise employed in a full-time capacity. Unless you have a plan for your children's education, they won't issue you a visa.

This all brings me to the conclusion that Ecuador would be pretty much impossible, unless you get a state teaching credential and land a job in an international school with tuition benefit for your kids.

I know you've mentioned a willingness to live simply, but simplicity isn't that simple. Trying to support a family of four on a regular EFL salary isn't a simplicity most peoplle would accept. You might be willing to live in a cheap Ecuadorian neighborhood, but the neighbors won't accept you in a poor barrio. You, and your kids, could easily become moving targets for theft and worse. You may be willing to make clothes (I also cook from scratch, practice carpentry, and am not bad at sewing.) In an entry level EFL position, these skills won't come to much, as your schedule won't leave you the time to do these things.

And few EFL positions will provide private health insurance for more than one person. There is NO publlic health here to speak of. You don't want to put your kids in the situation of not going to a doctor for economic reasons.

Honestly, three_decades, it's not my intention to lecture. I've run into a lot of folks over the years, though, who fall into a romantic vision of Latin America and of EFL overseas. I love it here, but it's not so romantic. I also know the US, and know that it's a nation that does little enough to support children and their needs, particularly those in single parent families.

I'll just point out that the parts of Latin America I know do much, much less. People here get by, mostly through the immense support that extended families provide. You won't have that.

So the only way I can see that you could make a go of it would be by getting an excellent job. In Ecuador at least, mostly not available without further quals than an online TEFL.

Best,
Justin

[three_decades]

Glenski, I definitely appreciate your concern. I never said anything about accepting a low wage job and just jumping into the first opportunity that presents itself, to the detriment of my children. These are some of the reasons I have already started doing my homework at least 3 years beforehand. My life presents enough discouragement as it is, which is why I prefer to be as positive as possible, without being unrealistic, when exploring all the hypothetical options.

I have some non-mainstream views about primary education for children, that I am sure we could never see eye to eye on, so I will save us both the trouble by just leaving it at that.

I'm not counting on it, but there is even a chance that during the next 3-4 years I could find someone that would like to come along and travel with us -- that would make things easier. A lot can change in a few years time.

Learning another language isn't a problem for me, because I have full confidence in my ability to teach myself. I did mention I have two other languages that I speak to a DLPT level 3 fluency. I also have varying degrees of survival/beginner knowledge of several other languages. Having the opportunity to learn yet another to a more acceptable degree of fluency would be a huge bonus to me.

Thank you for the insight into latin america, Justin. I have known a few individuals from poorer 'ranchos' of Mexico and never imagined that the schooling would be so bad... I will definitely have to explore the area I want to work in before I commit to a contract.

With the examples I gave of living simply, I was more or less trying to explain that I am not the average american that needs Walmart or Gap or central air. I know a lot of women in my family would not last three days without all their modern conveniences. Regardless, it was never my intention to not finish my education and just jump into the lowest paying ESL job I can find. I will definitely be looking to work legally and at a job that pays well for the cost of living.

If an online TEFL cert would not help me, then I can just wait and save up for something better. Patience is something that having all these kids has helped me develop.

[three_decades]

[naturegirl321]

Forget South America too, I'ts hard enough for my husband and I to get by. If I were you, try to get certified to teach in a school, then land an intl school job
www.tes.co.uk

[naturegirl321]

[three_decades]

[Glenski]