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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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 Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Apsara wrote: |
| Glenski, you don't think that the introduction of English classes to every single elementary school in Japan is going to lead to an increase in the number of ALTs at all? |
What is the rate of increase of kids entering elementary school? Over time, if things don't change, there will be practically none, so at that time there will be no need for elementary school. Sounds drastic, but look at the numbers.
| Quote: |
| There might be a low birthrate in Japan, but there still are children here, and if they have to learn English then someone has to be teaching them, no? |
Yes, but ALTs already service several schools at once. Who is to say that they won't be spread out even thinner, just so the dispatch companies and BOEs can save more money? There will probably be a rise, yes, but not in the huge numbers that you seem to suggest. Just my hunch here. Since 1985, the number of elem schools had fallen from 25,000 to 23,000, and is in a downward spiral along with almost every other school. Since 1981 (peak year), the number of elem school students has plummeted, too, from 11,925,000 to 7,201,000. Big drop, eh?
http://www.mext.go.jp/english/statist/05101901/005.pdf
This is a major yardstick to consider.
Another? How often has the government flipflopped on its education policies? Pretty much every PM. Lots of glitz in the policies on paper, but they really have not been carried out.
http://opac.kanto-gakuin.ac.jp/cgi-bin/retrieve/sr_bookview.cgi/U_CHARSET.utf-8/NI20000267/Body/link/105-111.pdf
So, the 5th and 6th graders will have to take English soon. The next PM and cronies will just override that, like they did when the gov decided to drop Saturday school days because too many kids were deemed to becoming juvenile delinquents and criminals (hijacking buses and kidnapping other kids at knife-point), and so needed more time in their loving homes. Then, reality set in with parents who demanded that their kids weren't getting enough education to enter college, so flip-flop, all within a handful of years.
JET numbers are falling ( http://jetprogramme.org/documents/pubs/2009_Pamphlet_e.pdf ), perhaps as a result of the inroads made by the dispatch agencies, but how long will it be before ALTs scream about salaries of 170,000 yen/month (a drop of 32% over an otherwise unchanged salary akin to eikaiwas)? Will parents accept the revolving door policies of some BOE-dispatch agency collaborations? Tune into YouTube for a video or two showing some of the outrage at half a dozen ALTs in a year at just one school, just as an example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaNeUW7XtJY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLKBRHFO7r8
And, salaries have been going down in the past 5 years or so. The 170,000 is not a fluke.
| Apsara wrote: |
| Just to comment on this- I pay less than 4,000 yen a month in cell phone fees, and until my husband got an iPhone he paid around 3,000, so your figures here are on the high side. |
I don't think so. I did say average numbers were in my calculations, and 3500-5000 is a range that covers a lot of people and the plethora of options that Japan offers. Just curious, how much does hubby pay with his iPhone now?
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Many people now don't bother with landlines
my husband and I have never had a landline in our apartment
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Please! Don't give me anecdotes like "many" or an n=1 of your own situation. If you can't support a defense with "most", then you can't really say I'm grossly off the mark. What does it matter anyway? The costs are similar except for the installation.
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| We pay 2,000 yen a month for internet, and the first 2 months were free if I recall correctly. |
On top of the phone charges? Please divulge all details. And, after those first 2 months...? We're back at comparing apples and apples.
| ShioriEigoKyoushi wrote: |
Rent: 85,000
Travel: 6000 not reimbursed, the rest is - my choice to move out of company apartment
Food/Groceries: 37,500 - based on five week month
Weekend lunch and travel: 10,000, again based on five week month (more than I ever spend actually, but I like to know it's there)
Electricity, Gas & Water: 12,000
Mobile phone and international calling card: 4,500
Internet access: 1,900 |
Travel is usually reimbursed by most employers, and I'm surprised your amount is so low. Depends on where one lives, as I've been saying, and I'd have figured at least 20,000 (what I paid in a city of only 2 million).
People have criticized my 30,000 food budget, but it all depends on the individual. Finding sales, getting the marked-down foods, eating efficiently (by cooking large pots to store away), etc. are all good ideas.
Weekend travel? Locally perhaps, but there may be more during breaks. It all is so hard to work into averages, isn't it?
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Now here's some other stuff that wasn't included in your budget, but which I know from past experience will bite one on the backside if you don't budget for it. Maybe they're things you would class as "savings", but I wouldn't want to call them that because I'd want to ensure I had enough money for these before putting the money anywhere else.
Sickness/emergency fund: 10,000 - if you're not a national health scheme (which costs more than this after the first year) you'll get pay deducted when you're sick. Put this aside each month and you can afford to catch the flu once a year.
Clothes fund: 6000 (that's one cardigan and one vest, or maybe two tops)
Book fund: 800 (one good quality teaching book every few months)
Travel fund: 9000 (because you do actually want to *see* Japan, don't you?)
Technology: 8000 (because that laptop and camera you love so much will break one day, and are depreciating all the time).
Haircut: 2000 (that's a good quality cut and maybe some colour every three months for the ladies, or 2-3 cuts a month for the men) |
I'm glad you brought some of these up, especially the emergency fund. I didn't mention it as a necessity or luxury, but it is certainly something to think about having. Accidents happen, and we are all only human.
As for clothes, books, and travel fund, those are the luxuries I mentioned. Same with technology. Haircuts can be had for a measly 1000 yen, or into the several 10,000 depending on what you have done. It's not a luxury per se, and some people save by cutting/dyeing/perming their own, but let's just set a rough low end figure of 3000 (male/females on average, c'mon, fess up!). But where do you get 2-3 cuts a month for men? Once is sufficient, and I know people who let it grow for 6-8 weeks. |
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Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| Apsara wrote: |
| t;]Just to comment on this- I pay less than 4,000 yen a month in cell phone fees, and until my husband got an iPhone he paid around 3,000, so your figures here are on the high side. |
I don't think so. I did say average numbers were in my calculations, and 3500-5000 is a range that covers a lot of people and the plethora of options that Japan offers. Just curious, how much does hubby pay with his iPhone now?
| Quote: |
Many people now don't bother with landlines
my husband and I have never had a landline in our apartment
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Please! Don't give me anecdotes like "many" or an n=1 of your own situation. If you can't support a defense with "most", then you can't really say I'm grossly off the mark. What does it matter anyway? The costs are similar except for the installation.
| Quote: |
| We pay 2,000 yen a month for internet, and the first 2 months were free if I recall correctly. |
On top of the phone charges? Please divulge all details. And, after those first 2 months...? We're back at comparing apples and apples. |
Glenski, the range you gave for cellphones initially was 5,000-10,000 yen per month, not 3500-5000 as in your second post. I stand by what I said- the lower end of your estimate was too high. I don't really see how you can disagree with that. My husband's iPhone is 5,000 a month, but I think that is irrelevant- I didn't say that a cellphone can't cost 5,000 yen, I said it can cost well under 5,000 yen. If you are going to give ranges, they should cover both ends of the spectrum.
As for the landlines, I read a news article a while back saying that the number of people installing landlines these days has dropped drastically and that younger people in particular tend not to bother with them. I thought that you might have seen enough of my posts over the last few years to know that I don't just make things up, but I will try to find the quote at some point if you like. I don't ask you to back up with references everything you say here, why are you suddenly singling me out for that kind of thing?
By "many" I meant "a large number", which does not have to be "most" (i.e. well over half) to be a significant percentage of people. The point I was trying to make is that a landline can now be seen as a luxury- it is not a necessity at all any more for... a statistically significant number of people. I will give anecdotes here if I believe them to be relevant to the topic. People are then free to take what they want from those anecdotes.
I stated exactly what the costs are for our internet connection- it was free for the first two months, and now it costs us 2,000 yen a month- didn't I make that clear? It is not necessary to have a landline to have internet connection, at all. There was no installation fee, and as I think I have made quite clear by now, we have no landline, no home phone. You might want to do some more research on that kind of thing if you are going to set yourself up as an expert on costs of living in Japan.
As for the elementary schools thing, it is too late for me to go into it very much right now, but you gave a figure of 23,000 elementary schools in Japan now and suggested that agencies could mostly just spread the ALTs they currently have thinner. Over 23,000 schools?  That would be pretty damn thin. I didn't talk about "huge numbers" by the way, I just suggested there would be more jobs. I am just taking a rough guess, but I would think up to several thousand more ALTs could be needed, which would represent quite an increase in the number of teaching jobs available in Japan. |
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ShioriEigoKyoushi
Joined: 21 Aug 2009
Posts: 364
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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Text deleted
Last edited by ShioriEigoKyoushi on Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Apsara wrote: |
| Glenski, the range you gave for cellphones initially was 5,000-10,000 yen per month, not 3500-5000 as in your second post. |
Sorry, but you misread that. I wrote:
cell phone installation at 10,000, then about 5000-8000 per month thereafter; landline installation at 30,000, then 3500-5000 per month thereafter
Note that the installation is not included in the range of monthly payments.
| Quote: |
| I stand by what I said- the lower end of your estimate was too high. I don't really see how you can disagree with that. |
Because from the many people I have talked to, that (3500) is the lower range on average. Let's not quibble over a few hundred yen, though.
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| My husband's iPhone is 5,000 a month, but I think that is irrelevant- |
I don't. It's right on the mark of my averages. The only reason I asked for it was the way you'd written it so briefly earlier. Thanks for the number.
| Quote: |
| As for the landlines, I read a news article a while back saying that the number of people installing landlines these days has dropped drastically and that younger people in particular tend not to bother with them. |
Younger people as in Japanese? Or as in foreigners, too? Big difference. Doesn't really matter, I think, but I'd be interested to know. In the long run, I tried to cover both bases -- cell phone and landline -- so what difference does it make? The costs are there for people to see. And, if one chooses to rent a phone line, it can be even less than either of us have stated, but since that is not the norm (average), I didn't state it.
| Quote: |
| By "many" I meant "a large number", which does not have to be "most" (i.e. well over half) to be a significant percentage of people. The point I was trying to make is that a landline can now be seen as a luxury |
I know what you are saying, and I'll give you that, but the fact is that when newbie teachers come here, it is very likely that their employers will provide an apartment with a landline phone, so that cost is practically built into their daily lives. In any case, landline or cell phone, I consider either one to be a necessity, and the monthly charges are there to put into one's estimates. That is the bottom line I'm trying to say.
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| I stated exactly what the costs are for our internet connection- it was free for the first two months, and now it costs us 2,000 yen a month- didn't I make that clear? It is not necessary to have a landline to have internet connection, at all. There was no installation fee, and as I think I have made quite clear by now, we have no landline, no home phone. You might want to do some more research on that kind of thing if you are going to set yourself up as an expert on costs of living in Japan. |
Again, you don't seem to see my point, which is what the average person pays.
| Quote: |
| As for the elementary schools thing, it is too late for me to go into it very much right now, but you gave a figure of 23,000 elementary schools in Japan now and suggested that agencies could mostly just spread the ALTs they currently have thinner. Over 23,000 schools? That would be pretty damn thin. |
Why do you consider it so thin? Unless you have figures showing how many ALTs there are now, and what the rate of dispatch agencies growing is, all you can do is make an emotional statement of shock. That doesn't change the fact that 23,000 schools exist and are falling in number.
Some ALTs cover 2-3 schools, others may cover as many as 10 according to forum reports. Let's take a low average of 4-5.
23,000 / 4or5 = 4,600-5,800 ALTs needed, but that's only if we fail to include direct hires and only if we assume that each and every school will choose to take on an ALT, and that places like volunteer groups, the military, or some other organization doesn't pick up some of the slack. Round those off to 4000-5000. That's how many JET hire right now! Even if you use 2-3 as a figure instead of 4-5, the remainder can easily be picked up by existing dispatch companies (which are on the rise). I think my numbers hold water.
| Quote: |
| I didn't talk about "huge numbers" by the way, I just suggested there would be more jobs. I am just taking a rough guess, but I would think up to several thousand more ALTs could be needed, which would represent quite an increase in the number of teaching jobs available in Japan. |
I just don't see how you can make such an estimate. I don't know how many schools currently have no ALTs (which would be the number needed to fill), but even if it were half, look at the figures I've just cited. What slots dispatch agencies take away from JET, they will fill themselves.
EDIT:
Wikipedia sources the government in saying that 4 years ago there were 1,500 ALTs in Japan from private dispatch organizations. Would be nice to know what the number is now and how many schools each ALT serves, plus what the Ministry of Education meant (or left out) by "private dispatch". |
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Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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Ok Glenski, so you are offering averages with those numbers. I took your figures to be a complete range, which is why I disagreed. I think it's worth pointing out that costs can be lower than your ranges, since that wasn't clear- some people may be basing decisions on whether to come to Japan/take a certain job partly on the figures you give.
When I said the number of landline subscriptions has dropped, I of course meant over the entire population of Japan. I doubt that the number of foreigners subscribing/not subscribing is all that significant, statistically.
As for the need for more ALTs for elementary schools, well, we will just have to wait and see, won't we. You're quite insistent on the low birth rate having high relevance to this topic, but we aren't going to see a disappearance of elementary schools by 2011, and I doubt the number of ALTs currently in Japan will come anywhere near covering the number that will be needed. We may just have to agree to disagree there. |
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Caliroll
Joined: 02 Mar 2008
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:39 am Post subject: |
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A little off your budget argument but...
The the new elementary English classes for years 5 and 6 will be taught by Japanese homeroom teachers. That is why there were such programs as TOKKU, where English teachers (both foreign and Japanese nationals) were employed to help train Japanese elementary school teachers for the transition. This suggests to me that the Japanese education ministry is not envisioning increasing ALT employment rates. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:47 am Post subject: |
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Apsara,
Fair enough on agreeing to disagree. I'm glad we came to a settlement on that. I would like to have some set of figures to show the lower end of every finance that people encounter, but it's just impractical. People have different situations and needs. Perhaps in the future, people could collaborate to come up with at least some options for single items like phone/Internet. Then, interested people could see and judge for themselves. It'll be tough, though, and prices seem to change fairly rapidly here.
You originally asked:
you don't think that the introduction of English classes to every single elementary school in Japan is going to lead to an increase in the number of ALTs at all?
I emphasize "at all" compared to what you just wrote (in 2011 only). Which is it you are asking?
Caliroll,
I wasn't aware that the ALTs wouldn't be involved in teaching 5th and 6th grade elementary school. Do you have a reference on that? In the city where I live, the ALTs just reported the following:
We are already involved [in 5th and 6th grade English classes].
The teacher's guide that comes with the Eigo Noto book has all lesson plans written out with roles for both an ALT and the HRT (Home Room Teacher). Of course it is not necessary to have an ALT there and that is also written in the guide.
Edit:
Another long-term ALT had this to say:
I wish they'd hire another person or two. The teachers really feel put-upon, having to acquire English at this time in their lives. They'd love to push this off onto an "English specialist" -- kind of like a music teacher. I've
seen all sorts of schemes in action: volunteers from JICA, Japanese volunteers from the community, jr. high school English teachers making an English visit, dispatch services, blah, blah, blah.
But, given that the economy is bad and budgets are being cut, I don't see the BOEs hiring that many more ALTs. |
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Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
You originally asked:
you don't think that the introduction of English classes to every single elementary school in Japan is going to lead to an increase in the number of ALTs at all?
I emphasize "at all" compared to what you just wrote (in 2011 only). Which is it you are asking?
[/color] |
I'm a bit confused by this question- I have been talking about an increase, in 2011, in the number of ALTs needed, caused directly by the introduction of English to elementary schools in that year. What are you thinking I meant? |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| I am talking about a long-term increase as a result of the legislation. You seem to be talking about an increase only for the year 2011. So far, I don't really see much of an increase on the way. Anyone else? |
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Caliroll
Joined: 02 Mar 2008
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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Glenski,
Sorry but I do not have a reference for you but I have been following the story of for several years as I give teacher training seminars to elementary school public teachers each summer as part of my community contribution obligation. If you are that interested in becoming educated on the subject you will be able to find heaps of newspaper articles. Also, search back issues of The Language Teacher or the JALT Journal and you'll no doubt find something.
The whole point of this new curriculum is that Japanese teachers will be teaching these new English classes. The textbook (EIGO NOTE) is designed for Japanese teachers to use. One of the strongest arguments against the program is that elementary school teachers are ill-prepared to teach English. Many of the teachers are very resistant to the idea as well. After all, they're being pulled out of their comfort zone, right? The other main argument against is that children need to learn Japanese more seriously before taking on a second language.
The accounts from ALT's you pasted in your post only show that they are involved with teaching English at their elementary schools. Of course they would be. Schools that have a regular ALT or are visited by ALT's will no doubt utilize them for these English classes. One of the reasons the new curriculum was implemented is because they want ALL children to have access to English classes, not just schools that receive ALT visits. It was not started with the idea of employing more ALT's to teach these new classes. Of course that could change down the road. I certainly cannot predict the future. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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Caliroll,
We're probably saying the same thing here, but initially I thought we weren't. That was based largely on this statement you wrote:
"The the new elementary English classes for years 5 and 6 will be taught by Japanese homeroom teachers."
Well, yes, HRTs do most of the teaching, not only for English but all classes in elementary school. And, yes, Eigo Note (my ALT friends and others shudder at this so-called supplemental text) was written in Japanese, so it was designed for the HRT to use. But, as my quotes show, some HRTs don't take charge of the English classes in 5th and 6th grades, and they expect the ALTs to use Eigo Note without them. It's going to be a rough ride in elementary school as HRTs adjust to the new curriculum, and the hardest hit will be those who didn't get any supplemental training.
It'll be interesting even in the near future because of this news item.
November 30, 2009
No funding for public elementary school English materials?
www.eltnews.com
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It seems likely that funding for 'Eigo Noto', the material being used for English courses at public elementary schools, will be stopped. A government unit that was set up to reduce government waste has come out against the project. The Ministry of Education requested 850 million yen to pay for the materials, but this was rejected.
'Eigo Noto' was developed to try and help give teachers and schools more direction. It has been praised for its use of electronic blackboard technology, but has also received much criticism for lacking a coherent syllabus and feeling too Japanese. It also reflects the much criticized government guideline against teaching any reading and writing.
The Daily Yomiuri reported that, 'members of the Government Revitalization Unit's screening team came out against the project, even raising the fundamental question of why English should be taught at primary schools. Some said the material should be digitized so schools could print the materials.' |
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Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| I am talking about a long-term increase as a result of the legislation. You seem to be talking about an increase only for the year 2011. So far, I don't really see much of an increase on the way. Anyone else? |
I don't know how you got that idea. If there is an increase in 2011, there will obviously be greater numbers thereafter as well. I was talking about an increase beginning in 2011- why would numbers suddenly drop afterwards, and where did I suggest anything like that? Since it's still 2009, I would say that we would almost certainly need to wait until the hiring season for the 2011 school year starts to see if there are more jobs being offered.
If Japanese teachers will be doing all the teaching, then of course we won't see an increase in ALTs. |
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ShioriEigoKyoushi
Joined: 21 Aug 2009
Posts: 364
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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Text deleted
Last edited by ShioriEigoKyoushi on Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ripslyme
Joined: 29 Jan 2005
Posts: 481
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| ShioriEigoKyoushi wrote: |
| But I did hear one convincing argument against yesterday - which is that if these students start learning English before JHS it will soon be included as a requirement in JHS entrance exams, which will only add to the exam burden. |
Where are you that there are entrance exams to JHS? In my experience, students just go to the JHS that is closest to their house. |
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ssjup81
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 664
Location: Adachi-ku, Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| ripslyme wrote: |
| ShioriEigoKyoushi wrote: |
| But I did hear one convincing argument against yesterday - which is that if these students start learning English before JHS it will soon be included as a requirement in JHS entrance exams, which will only add to the exam burden. |
Where are you that there are entrance exams to JHS? In my experience, students just go to the JHS that is closest to their house. |
Yeah, the only entrance exams (as far as JHS goes) I know of, are private JHS. The private JHS have entrance exams, to my knowledge. |
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