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The Ever-changing Cleric
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1523
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 Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| Dinah606 wrote: |
| In terms of the quality the degreeless teachers, it varies. Out of last years group of teachers, the two teachers who I respected most, and who I thought did the best job, didn't have a degree. They came into school everyday, put work into their lesson plans, engaged their classes in creative activities, and were consistantly on time with their marking and such. Some of the teachers with degrees acted as if their year in China was just one big frat party. There was also a forty year old woman with a masters was also a raging alcoholic, and would stumble into school drunk, and missed a ridiculous amount of class. I would much rather be taught a language by somebody with no degree, than be taught a language by her. |
we all have examples of this type of anecdotal evidence, but they don't prove anything.
these hasty generalizations (the raging alcoholic with the MA, the degree holding frat party teachers, the two teachers without degrees you respected most etc) are usually exceptions to the rule. |
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IT2006
Joined: 17 Jan 2009
Posts: 91
Location: Wichita, KS, and westward.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| I think at least a couple of people need to spend some time in a college classroom. The behavior described applies more to some of the folks I've met whose education was, at best, suspect. |
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theincredibleegg
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 224
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm working with a woman who has no BA and she's one of the more solid teachers at the school. |
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waxwing
Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 719
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:22 am Post subject: |
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| norwalkesl wrote: |
This is, of course, a business oriented USA attitude towards education. Specialized and focused, not general as in Europe.
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No! The opposite is true, for example in the UK - a 3 year Bachelor's Degree in Mathematics means 3 years studying Mathematics only. Such a person is actually significantly more qualified in Maths than someone with a 4 year degree from the US majoring in Mathematics. Not because the US system is worse, but because it is a far broader education involving other subjects.
While Joint Honours and other forms of broadening have occurred within UK higher education, it is still obviously true that the UK system is far more specialised than the US.
Systems vary across Europe, and I am no expert on them, but from what I've seen of French, German graduates they have a more old-fashioned, specialised degree system too (I would be happy to be corrected on that if wrong..) |
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hankemhigh
Joined: 24 Dec 2009
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:24 am Post subject: |
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| I thought the UK didn't consider themselves Europe. |
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Sansibar1
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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waxwing wrote:
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No! The opposite is true, for example in the UK - a 3 year Bachelor's Degree in Mathematics means 3 years studying Mathematics only. Such a person is actually significantly more qualified in Maths than someone with a 4 year degree from the US majoring in Mathematics. Not because the US system is worse, but because it is a far broader education involving other subjects.
While Joint Honours and other forms of broadening have occurred within UK higher education, it is still obviously true that the UK system is far more specialised than the US.
Systems vary across Europe, and I am no expert on them, but from what I've seen of French, German graduates they have a more old-fashioned, specialised degree system too (I would be happy to be corrected on that if wrong..) |
I fully agree here.
I have worked with a number of German personnel managers and almost all stated they would rather hire a graduate from the UK or Ireland than one from the States.
They didn't think too highly of the 'generalist' education system of American universities. (E.g. why must someone study Eng. Comp. or American History when Mathematics is their major???)  |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Sansibar1 wrote: |
waxwing wrote:
| Quote: |
No! The opposite is true, for example in the UK - a 3 year Bachelor's Degree in Mathematics means 3 years studying Mathematics only. Such a person is actually significantly more qualified in Maths than someone with a 4 year degree from the US majoring in Mathematics. Not because the US system is worse, but because it is a far broader education involving other subjects.
While Joint Honours and other forms of broadening have occurred within UK higher education, it is still obviously true that the UK system is far more specialised than the US.
Systems vary across Europe, and I am no expert on them, but from what I've seen of French, German graduates they have a more old-fashioned, specialised degree system too (I would be happy to be corrected on that if wrong..) |
I fully agree here.
I have worked with a number of German personnel managers and almost all stated they would rather hire a graduate from the UK or Ireland than one from the States.
They didn't think too highly of the 'generalist' education system of American universities. (E.g. why must someone study Eng. Comp. or American History when Mathematics is their major???) |
Probably because a large share of Americans do not work in the fields they studied. |
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silkbomber
Joined: 05 Jan 2010
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:11 am Post subject: |
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If the don't work in the area of study, then what is the relevance of the study?
I guess the advantage of having so many people going to university is that it significant reduces the level of unemployment.
I will apologize for my post which I attack university students. I didn't mean to suggest that that was all uni was about. From where I was as an 18 year old, and based on the uni lives of some of my friends, that is the direction it would have gone.
I had no intention of starting a debate about the merits of a degree, I was merely seeking advice on what I should do in terms of getting a job.
To post "you reallly should get.... blah blah" isn't really productive advice.
Anyways,
I am going to stay in china on an L spousal visa, and try to get a job and a Z visa while I am there. If I have to go to hong kong to get it done, then so be it. Many language schools have informally offered me jobs, but have told me to come to china and they will talk to me. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| To post "you reallly should get.... blah blah" isn't really productive advice. |
Actually it is quite productive. You would be in a better position if you bite the bullet and get the degree. I am not advocating that a degree makes on a better teacher just that it is the bare minimum for many jobs.
You could get a B.A. from Open University online. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| The Ever-changing Cleric wrote: |
| Jayray wrote: |
| silkbomber wrote: |
And to Jay Ray, I find that self righteous attitude of yours interesting.
Are you telling me that I really should have spent 3 years spending more of my time going to parties getting drunk and occasionally studying while doing a very easy art degree? Would that really have more benefit then travelling learning and doing business in several different countries?
And I would be happy to be taught by a chinese fisherman. I rate people on the quality of life skills and experience a person has, not how long he spent in school. |
I am being realistic, not self-righteous.
Sharing your personal experiences may enrich many people's lives, but without a formal education your options are limited, and the number of people who will rate (or even accept) you as a teacher solely on the quality of your life skills and experience without a formal education are few. In addition, it's always a good idea to get a formal education in the area in which one claims expertise.
I think that those who actually attended college and fulfilled the requirements of a college degree might disagree with your perception of what college is about. |
you're right jayray. when teaching university students its always a good idea to have undergone the process yourself. even better if you studied a foreign language yourself, at least it gives you some understanding of what the students are going through.
the best professors i had possessed a combination of a good education AND valuable life experience.
silkbomber, i wont speak for others but the four years of my arts degree weren't spent partying and drinking my face off. further, if the degree is from a good school with decent professors, it can be a challenging and rewarding experience. maybe you should do one of these degrees before making the claims you made up above. |
Yes, university students party but so do many 18-22 non-university students. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 4:54 am Post subject: |
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And to Jay Ray, I find that self righteous attitude of yours interesting.
Are you telling me that I really should have spent 3 years spending more of my time going to parties getting drunk and occasionally studying while doing a very easy art degree? Would that really have more benefit then travelling learning and doing business in several different countries? |
The only thing that you are missing is that at least in America a very large percentage of students work 20 to 40 hours a week while attending university. Maybe things are different in the country you are from but a lot of American students are doing both, working and studying.
http://www.brockport.edu/career01/upromise.htm |
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A'Moo
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 1067
Location: a supermarket that sells cheese
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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There does seem to be an air of entitlement, from University grads here, from time to time. I find it somewhat amusing that ANYONE would advise someone coming to China to attain a degree to secure a job paying 5 dollars an hour...
Face it, this is China. They will make your diploma for you while you are taking a leak.
Not a knock on education per se, but would you be interested in devoting 3-10 years of your life in order to attain uncertain employment for 5-10 dollars an hour? |
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Samurai Blur
Joined: 23 Aug 2009
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| A'Moo wrote: |
There does seem to be an air of entitlement, from University grads here, from time to time. I find it somewhat amusing that ANYONE would advise someone coming to China to attain a degree to secure a job paying 5 dollars an hour...
Face it, this is China. They will make your diploma for you while you are taking a leak.
Not a knock on education per se, but would you be interested in devoting 3-10 years of your life in order to attain uncertain employment for 5-10 dollars an hour? |
Actually, if you can land a job making 12,000RMB a month and you're working 20 hours a week, that translates to $21USD an hour. Not a bad living for China, and I never understand why anyone would go to China for less... Also, a degree can secure more benefits than just money.
The point of telling the OP to get a degree is so he can go to China legally and have a better pick of the job market. I can't imagine being stuck in a job where my employer abuses the fact that I don't have a degree and can't find work elsewhere because of that.
I also don't see anything wrong with the view that you owe it to your kids to have a degree in something to do with English. You would be right to say that someone isn't a good teacher just because he or has has a degree, but I don't believe for second that if someone is a good teacher they wouldn't be twice that with a few years in the classroom studying what they are teaching.
I was always good at English and Writing in primary and secondary, and I tutored quite a few people in it quite successfully right before college, but if I were to compare what I knew then to what I know after being in college...
English and Linguistics classes can do wonders, even for those who are damn good at it straight out of high school and like to argue that they don't need college. |
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A'Moo
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 1067
Location: a supermarket that sells cheese
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Samurai Blur wrote: |
| A'Moo wrote: |
There does seem to be an air of entitlement, from University grads here, from time to time. I find it somewhat amusing that ANYONE would advise someone coming to China to attain a degree to secure a job paying 5 dollars an hour...
Face it, this is China. They will make your diploma for you while you are taking a leak.
Not a knock on education per se, but would you be interested in devoting 3-10 years of your life in order to attain uncertain employment for 5-10 dollars an hour? |
Actually, if you can land a job making 12,000RMB a month and you're working 20 hours a week, that translates to $21USD an hour. Not a bad living for China, and I never understand why anyone would go to China for less...
The point of telling the OP to get a degree is so he can go to China legally and have a better pick of the job market. I can't shine being stuck in a job where my employer abuses the fact that I don't have a degree and can't find work elsewhere because of that.
I also don't see anything wrong with the view that you owe it to your kids to have a degree in something to do with English. You would be right to say that someone isn't a good teacher just because he or has has a degree, but I don't believe for second that if someone is a good teacher they wouldn't be twice that with a few years in the classroom studying what they are teaching.
I was always good at English and Writing in primary and secondary, and I tutored quite a few people in it quite successfully right before college, but if I were to compare what I knew then to what I know after being in college...
English and Linguistics classes can do wonders, even for those who are damn good at it straight out of high school and like to argue that they don't need college. |
Agree, but many, if not most, DO work for less. Degree or not.
In my experiences here, whether or not you hold a degree, an unscrupulous proprietor will hold something over your head, if that is his modus operandi.
Its amazing how the Xinhua bookstores here stock Shakespeare and many classics, and little else in the way of English reading material. It is so ridiculously illegible to even the top students here. |
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hankemhigh
Joined: 24 Dec 2009
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Its amazing how the Xinhua bookstores here stock Shakespeare and many classics, and little else in the way of English reading material. It is so ridiculously illegible to even the top students here. |
Not to get off topic , but near my house there is a park where a guy sells all kinds of English Books for 10rmb up. Chinese line up on Sundays to look at the selection.
My employer (foreign) has complained tht the students were not making use of the reference library provided by the foreign institution. The same classics that line the Xinhua bookstore shelves sit idle in our classrooms. |
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