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ssjup81
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 664
Location: Adachi-ku, Tokyo, Japan
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 Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| Unless you count the cost of airfare (which you'd pay anyway), I still disagree. How do you/he figure? |
Not referring to airfare. Just the Visa in general. Said it'd come out cheaper (for the Visa) due to my being from the US since, technically, I would be exempt from even needing a Visa for a Short-term visit. I'd only need my passport and my return ticket home to get through immigration and all that.
I guess what they were saying, is that they would want their successful candidates to come on over as a tourist, and then they take care of the beginning procedures of the Work Visa application (which they would be applying for anyway) while the candidate is on the way over and finish them up once the candidate arrives and then do the Change of Visa Status thing. Seems he was going on about how it's faster to do it this way and easier to do so.
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| It's not really as bad as it sounds to tell immigration you are here as a tourist. The bigger problem is if you tell them you are here job hunting! Do that, and they will put you on the next plane back. |
So it's not illegal to do that? |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| ssjup81 wrote: |
| Glenski wrote: |
| Unless you count the cost of airfare (which you'd pay anyway), I still disagree. How do you/he figure? |
Not referring to airfare. Just the Visa in general. Said it'd come out cheaper (for the Visa) due to my being from the US since, technically, I would be exempt from even needing a Visa for a Short-term visit. I'd only need my passport and my return ticket home to get through immigration and all that. |
That's the same procedure for a huge number of countries that have a visa waiver program with Japan like the U.S. does. http://www.mofa.go.jp/j_info/visit/visa/short/novisa.html#list
Americans are not so unique in that respect. Don't let them buffalo you with that nonsense.
| Quote: |
| I guess what they were saying, is that they would want their successful candidates to come on over as a tourist, and then they take care of the beginning procedures of the Work Visa application (which they would be applying for anyway) while the candidate is on the way over and finish them up once the candidate arrives and then do the Change of Visa Status thing. |
Despite what was written earlier about BOE scheduling, the above is not necessary at all. File for the COE while you are still in your homeland. It'll take the same length of time, and it'll actually save time that way because you won't have wasted time sitting home.
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| Seems he was going on about how it's faster to do it this way and easier to do so. |
This guy sounds like a real shyster. It's neither faster nor easier. Be careful about places that say they will start the visa processing after you arrive. People have been shafted before.
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| It's not really as bad as it sounds to tell immigration you are here as a tourist. The bigger problem is if you tell them you are here job hunting! Do that, and they will put you on the next plane back. |
So it's not illegal to do that?[/quote]I believe the illegality is in being her on a tourist stay and looking for work, which is why they will put you on a plane. Realistically, a tourist just might (accidentally or purposefully) meet people to discuss employment. Immigration just doesn't approve of people using a tourist status to do that full-time.
So, keeping one's mouth shut and not volunteering info is only a white lie (you would already have the job somewhat guaranteed anyway), but in this particular situation, I think you can see that it's not even necessary. If they won't apply for the visa before you leave, something's wrong. It'll take 4-8 weeks to finalize anyway, and if they say the start dates on the contract have to be shown to immigration to make the visa application valid, they are right, but you and the employer can easily enough agree later to a different start date if you so choose. |
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ssjup81
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 664
Location: Adachi-ku, Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| Despite what was written earlier about BOE scheduling, the above is not necessary at all. File for the COE while you are still in your homeland. It'll take the same length of time, and it'll actually save time that way because you won't have wasted time sitting home. |
I actually asked about this in the interview, but the interviewer kept insisting on the other procedure.
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| This guy sounds like a real shyster. It's neither faster nor easier. Be careful about places that say they will start the visa processing after you arrive. People have been shafted before. |
I agree, which is why I was fine with everything he was saying, until he started talking about the Visa stuff. Didn't sit right with me.
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| I believe the illegality is in being her on a tourist stay and looking for work, which is why they will put you on a plane. Realistically, a tourist just might (accidentally or purposefully) meet people to discuss employment. Immigration just doesn't approve of people using a tourist status to do that full-time. |
So searching for work on a tourist visa is bad, eh? I know how working with a tourist visa is illegal...didn't know looking for work for later was too.
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| So, keeping one's mouth shut and not volunteering info is only a white lie (you would already have the job somewhat guaranteed anyway), but in this particular situation, I think you can see that it's not even necessary. If they won't apply for the visa before you leave, something's wrong. It'll take 4-8 weeks to finalize anyway, and if they say the start dates on the contract have to be shown to immigration to make the visa application valid, they are right, but you and the employer can easily enough agree later to a different start date if you so choose. |
That sounds like the safe route to me.
Anyway, this is what they sent me when I asked for it to be more thoroughly laid out in an e-mail...
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Part 1) A Certificate of Eligibility. This is obtained by us, the company, here in Japan. It is required before you may apply for a Work Visa. It takes 4-6 weeks. The following documents will be needed.
A) A photocopy of your passport photo and ID # page(s)
B) 2 head shot photos taken on a plain, white background 4cm (down) by 3cm (across).
C) Official Transcripts from each of your BA/BS or higher degrees. An official transcript will list the Type of Degree, and date awarded, and meets all requirements set by the awarding institution.
D) A copy of your BA/BS diplomas
E) Any additional degrees, certificates, or official records demonstrating experience, employment, or knowledge of Teaching or Japanese (language, or cultural studies)
Part 2) After the company has received the Certificate from the Japanese government, it can be used to apply for a Work Visa. You must do this at your expense, if I remember it was around 4,000 yen. Sponsorship cost around 18,000 yen. The company covers this cost (sponsorship) as long as you don�t break contract. It takes another 4-6 weeks for the Visa here in Japan, or 1 week outside of Japan at an Embassy.
You can apply for the Visa at any Japanese Consulate, or here in Japan at an immigration office (Mito has one. There should be an immigration office in each prefecture). So you could in theory, arrive in Japan on a 90day tourist Visa, and apply for the Work Visa here. We can assist you with company housing in the meantime, but it is technically improper to work without the proper Visa. |
Ironically, that's what was on the FAQ page of the site... |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:48 am Post subject: |
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| ssjup81 wrote: |
| I actually asked about this in the interview, but the interviewer kept insisting on the other procedure. |
There's a red flag in itself.
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| So searching for work on a tourist visa is bad, eh? |
I didn't say that. I said that immigration will not approve of you doing that, so if you come as a tourist, whether you have a solid lead on a job or just plan to start job hunting, DON'T mention it! Plenty of people come here and job hunt on tourist status.
[quote]Anyway, this is what they sent me when I asked for it to be more thoroughly laid out in an e-mail...
| Quote: |
| Part 1) A Certificate of Eligibility. This is obtained by us, the company, here in Japan. It is required before you may apply for a Work Visa. |
1) It can be obtained by the employer,or by you. In either case the application contains documents that both of you must provide. Don't let them bully you into thinking that they are the only ones who can apply for a COE for you.
See Q4 here:
http://www.mofa.go.jp/j_info/visit/visa/faq.html#q1-3
Q4: Is it necessary to go to the Japanese Embassy / Consulate General by myself to apply for a visa?
A4: There are three ways to apply for a visa: (1) the visa applicant him/herself goes directly to the Japanese Embassy / Consulate General, (2) the visa applicant writes a Letter of Proxy and get a proxy to go to the Japanese Embassy / Consulate General in his / her place, and (3) the visa applicant uses an accredited travel agent approved by the Japanese Embassy / Consulate General. However, depending on the circumstances in your country or region, there are cases that the documents should only be submitted by the applicant him/herself going to the Japanese Embassy/Consulate, or through an accredited travel agent, or by mail. Check with the embassy or consulate to which you plan to apply before making the application.
2) COEs are not always required. Highly recommended, but not necessarily always required.
http://www.mofa.go.jp/j_info/visit/visa/faq.html#q1-1
Q2: Why was my visa application rejected even though a Certificate of Eligibility was issued?
A2: The Certificate of Eligibility does not guarantee the issuance of the visa. The certificate means that the Ministry of Justice certifies that the foreign national meets the condition of landing (entering Japan): the activity which the foreign nationals wish to engage in Japan at the time of the landing examination is not fraudulent, and the activity is qualified to acquire status of residence that is stipulated in the Immigration Control Act, etc. Therefore, in the visa examination process, we do not examine the applicability of status of residence, but some other points such as the verification of the applicant's identity and the validity of his/ her passport. A visa will not be issued, if in the process of examination, it is found that the application does not meet the criteria of visa issuance, or it is determined that the Certificate of Eligibility was issued based on mistaken or fraudulent information.
| Quote: |
| The following documents will be needed. |
Just go here (MOFA home page, lower right corner box labeled Visa Application Documents (download) and see for yourself exactly what immigration requires.
http://www.mofa.go.jp/j_info/visit/visa/index.html
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| Part 2) After the company has received the Certificate from the Japanese government, it can be used to apply for a Work Visa. You must do this at your expense, if I remember it was around 4,000 yen. |
If you want to leave Japan for some reason and return within the time of your visa, you will need to buy a reentry permit. (3000 yen for a single reentry, 6000 yen for a multiple).
http://www.mofa.go.jp/j_info/visit/visa/procedure/fee.html
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| Sponsorship cost around 18,000 yen. |
Total unadulterated hogwash. It costs nothing!
http://www.japan-guide.com/forum/quereadisplay.html?0+58180
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| It takes another 4-6 weeks for the Visa here in Japan, or 1 week outside of Japan at an Embassy. |
No, once you have the COE in hand, it takes about 30 minutes in Japan. Can't recall how long it takes outside Japan.
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| You can apply for the Visa at any Japanese Consulate, or here in Japan at an immigration office (Mito has one. There should be an immigration office in each prefecture). |
If you apply in Japan, you must go to the office that has jurisdiction over the area where you work. Here are the offices.
http://www.immi-moj.go.jp/english/info/index.html |
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ssjup81
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 664
Location: Adachi-ku, Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:48 am Post subject: |
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Okay, thanks for that information. Oh, and for the record, I finally got a more thorough e-mail from my interviewer based on the "tourist visa" thing. I like this explanation much better. Still don't like it.
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-Upon arrival in Japan, a US citizen automatically receives a tourist visa of 90 days. This would not be allowed if one has already signed a contract and become part of a company's pay and tax registry. Of course, newly arriving ALTs without residence in Japan will not have been able to go through this process yet.
-Upon arrival at our offices, during the training process, contracts are signed and final documentation is exchanged. This documentation was created by the immigration office using a candidates submitted college documents and personally signed forms, as well as the company's official confirmation of an appropriate job awaiting the ALT.
-The documentation is, along with filling out a simple form located there, submitted to the immigration office nearest the ALT's newest residence before starting work. This is applying for a "change of visa status" and officially registers that ALT as someone awaiting the physical visa stamp under the auspices of the company, utilizing the job prepared that is listed on the documentation supplied by the company. A stamp reflecting this is then immediately placed in the passport, and the ALT is given a small card listing the date from which the visa itself can be picked up.
-The physical visa is placed in the passport on the date listed on the card. That's it!
Throughout this whole process, all ALTs are following the same pattern as each other, and through instruction from the company there's no real confusion on what to do in the process or how to do it.
If for any reason you might find this process uncomfortable, we understand if anyone wishes to independently handle their own visa process while abroad. If you wanted to do this, you would need to go through the process of applying on your own, covering the costs and paperwork involved. It also would take much more time and likely mean inability to arrive in March, rather needing to take a position starting in May. To be completely honest we prefer to do things ourselves as we can be sure a visa is attained quickly, and because any mistakes in the process can mean loss of that job chance, which is damaging to us, the ALT, the school board, and the school(s) waiting for that ALT. Still, we understand any reticence, and there is a small minority of applicants who choose to handle visa matters before arrival in Japan. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:23 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| -Upon arrival in Japan, a US citizen automatically receives a tourist visa of 90 days. |
Not exactly, since Americans are on the visa waiver program, as I mentioned earlier. They don't need a tourist visa like some countries. Their passport alone lets them in.
But we'll let this pass pedantically.
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| This would not be allowed if one has already signed a contract and become part of a company's pay and tax registry. |
I have no idea what gibberish he is talking about here, and I doubt he does either. Immigration wouldn't know if you've signed a contract or not.
If he's trying to say that if you sign a contract before you come here, and the starting date coincides with (or is before) your entry date, and you cannot be allowed to enter as a tourist, he is full of it.
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| Of course, newly arriving ALTs without residence in Japan will not have been able to go through this process yet. |
I could be wrong, but I think JET ALTs actually do.
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| -Upon arrival at our offices, during the training process, contracts are signed and final documentation is exchanged. |
"Final documentation"? Is this the part of the visa application forms you each have to provide? Unclear.
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| This documentation was created by the immigration office using a candidates submitted college documents and personally signed forms, as well as the company's official confirmation of an appropriate job awaiting the ALT. |
Clear as mud. Let's just assume he means what I wrote above, plus the actual visa application form I've already linked to you.
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| -The documentation is, along with filling out a simple form located there, submitted to the immigration office nearest the ALT's newest residence before starting work. This is applying for a "change of visa status" and officially registers that ALT as someone awaiting the physical visa stamp under the auspices of the company, utilizing the job prepared that is listed on the documentation supplied by the company. |
Up to here, ok.
But...
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| A stamp reflecting this is then immediately placed in the passport, and the ALT is given a small card listing the date from which the visa itself can be picked up. |
No. You don't get a "visa". You get a status of residence. Visas are what allow you to enter the country, and they are actually canceled in exchange for a status of residence, which is what is put in your passport.
They also make this out as if your passport is no longer in your hands. Don't fall for that if it's the case! Your passport should never leave your hands except when you are in the immigration office.
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| -The physical visa is placed in the passport on the date listed on the card. That's it! |
You mean the SOR is put there, and the date itself is simply a range (2 weeks?), not one fixed day.
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| If for any reason you might find this process uncomfortable, we understand if anyone wishes to independently handle their own visa process while abroad. If you wanted to do this, you would need to go through the process of applying on your own, covering the costs and paperwork involved. It also would take much more time |
No it wouldn't.
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| and likely mean inability to arrive in March, rather needing to take a position starting in May. |
Nope, nope, nope.
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| To be completely honest we prefer to do things ourselves as we can be sure a visa is attained quickly |
You are a company, buddy, not an immigration office, and as such, cannot "be sure" of any quickness in the visa process.
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| , and because any mistakes in the process can mean loss of that job chance |
No, just a delay in processing. Bully tactics!
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| , which is damaging to us, the ALT, the school board, and the school(s) waiting for that ALT. |
Yawn. More bullying? I'm almost asleep here. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:51 am Post subject: |
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All the things they say about visas sounds as if they don't want to have to accept any responsibility for you should they not receive a contract from the BOE for you to fill.
If you do things the way they want, arrive and they then decide they don't need you and turf you out on the streets what are you going to do? You've signed no contracts, you haven't even got a work visa and the company can deny any knowledge of your existance. If you go to the authorities, you'll look like somebody who lied, entered the country as a tourist when you clearly weren't here to sightsee and they'll suspect you of planning to work illegally.
To get the COE, they need to show a contract guarenteeing you work and an income large enough for you to be able to support yourself. If you then arrived and they didn't have work for you anymore, they'd probably be under some legal obligation to deal with you (or at least cover the cost of getting you home) and you'd probably have a foot to stand on should you need to take legal actions to recover the cost of actually getting there.
Basically its not any more complicated for them to start the visa process before you arrive. They apply for the COE using a copy of the employment contract and the necessary items supplied by you. They receive the COE, stick it in an envelope and mail it to you in the US. You take that to an embassy, pay nothing (processing is free according US embassy sites) and you are issued with your work visa (you may have to wait a few days, though).
When you arrive in Japan and get your address, you go to your local town/city office and apply for your ARC... Now that I tink about it, it seems easier to get the visa issued from an embassy outside of Japan. Because, you can then skip the whole needing to go to immigration part (and the processing and potentially quite large travel costs this entails) and just go to your city office to register (which is something you'll still need to do once your visa status change is approved and you've been back to immigration to get a new stamp in your passport). |
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ssjup81
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 664
Location: Adachi-ku, Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:56 am Post subject: |
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I still wouldn't take it, though, because I don't like how they do the visa process or the COE stuff. If I'm to be an employee for them, as you guys said, they should be doing everything prior to my getting there. It just doesn't sit right with me, which I said from the day I interviewed with 'em.
Anyway, I did get an offer and was sent a Provisional Employment Offer which has a lot of information for me to read through and fill out. I'm curious what it says. I have a week to respond. |
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OneJoelFifty
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| I don't know if it will be any different for me coming from the UK, but I've sent off all the documentation listed earlier in this thread and am expecting them to get the process started and send me the COE to take to the Japanese embassy in London. I'll let you know if this isn't the case... |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| seklarwia wrote: |
All the things they say about visas sounds as if they don't want to have to accept any responsibility for you should they not receive a contract from the BOE for you to fill.
If you do things the way they want, arrive and they then decide they don't need you and turf you out on the streets what are you going to do? You've signed no contracts, you haven't even got a work visa and the company can deny any knowledge of your existance. If you go to the authorities, you'll look like somebody who lied, entered the country as a tourist when you clearly weren't here to sightsee and they'll suspect you of planning to work illegally. |
I don't agree.
You come with 90 days as a tourist (if you do things their way). If they say, "no thanks" without you signing a contract, so what? You then have 89 more days to find a new employer. If you choose to do things their way, come in March, no later than April. Immigration doesn't have to be the wiser and there is no foul except for you having to find a place to stay (gaijin house would be the best route).
If you "go to the authorities", you are in no jeopardy. You were promised that they'd give you a contract and process your COE. Reneging on that is nothing, and you still have 89 days as a tourist. You are in no danger zone from immigration in the least.
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| To get the COE, they need to show a contract guarenteeing you work and an income large enough for you to be able to support yourself. If you then arrived and they didn't have work for you anymore, they'd probably be under some legal obligation to deal with you (or at least cover the cost of getting you home) |
I'm unsure about that. Depends in part on what is in the contract. But who wants to deal with a lawyer at that point (pre-visa application)? |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
You come with 90 days as a tourist (if you do things their way). If they say, "no thanks" without you signing a contract, so what? You then have 89 more days to find a new employer. If you choose to do things their way, come in March, no later than April. Immigration doesn't have to be the wiser and there is no foul except for you having to find a place to stay (gaijin house would be the best route). |
So what?! 89 days (assuming they tell you they screwed up on day 1) to find employment that may not even exist and because you've come in so late, most of the few jobs left going get given to people with legal working status. Perhaps you get lucky and find something on your last day... you've still got upto 2 months before you can legally start working plus another 2 until you get paid. I doubt most people could get by here for 6 months without a source of income.
And most people couldn't afford to keep themselves set up in their home country, just in case their employer cuts them lose and they are unable to find anything else before their tourist status expires. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:24 am Post subject: |
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| seklarwia wrote: |
| So what?! 89 days (assuming they tell you they screwed up on day 1) to find employment that may not even exist and because you've come in so late |
I'm not saying the situation is perfect, but if a person is here in March, it is not too late.
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| most of the few jobs left going get given to people with legal working status. |
You cannot state that with 100% confidence.
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| Perhaps you get lucky and find something on your last day... you've still got upto 2 months before you can legally start working plus another 2 until you get paid. I doubt most people could get by here for 6 months without a source of income. |
People often work while their visa is being processed. They get paid less and may not even have a contract until the visa arrives, but they do the work. They just keep quiet about it.
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| And most people couldn't afford to keep themselves set up in their home country |
Why? No unemployment these days?
Again, I am not saying the whole idea is perfect. In fact, I don't even recommend this sort of company, but if you do come, you have 90 days (3 whole months!) to find a job at or just after the peak hiring season. That's plenty. And, some nationalities can stay even longer. |
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Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:11 am Post subject: |
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It's amazing to see this outfit trying to make it sound like a good thing that they don't arrange a visa for you in advance, and that it is far better for you to arrive on a tourist permit. Quite some gall they have.
I do agree with seklarwia that if someone arrives thinking they have a solid job offer and has that pulled out from under them, it doesn't matter if they have 90 days to find a new job, it can still be a nasty position to be in. Someone who hasn't travelled much before and doesn't speak any Japanese might really feel adrift if a job offer was withdrawn, and not really be able to rationally sit down and start looking for jobs and accommodation while alone in a completely foreign country. I think it's easy for those of us who have been here some time to forget how overwhelming Japan can be to a new arrival.
And of course there's the money aspect- if you think you will be getting a paycheque of some kind within 2 months or so of arriving, surviving for 2 or 3 months longer without one in the case you had to start the job hunt over again might be out of the question. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Apsara wrote: |
| And of course there's the money aspect- if you think you will be getting a paycheque of some kind within 2 months or so of arriving, surviving for 2 or 3 months longer without one in the case you had to start the job hunt over again might be out of the question. |
If someone comes to Japan with less than enough money to survive for 2 months, even with a guaranteed job in hand, they are seriously risking a lot, IMO.
Sadly, there are many who come without much at all in their pockets, and who take out a loan with the employer right away, so they are indebted to him for a job, housing, and cash (to be paid back in the first few months, thus reducing their paycheck immediately). Desperate people, desperate situations. |
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Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| That used to be the norm when I was at Nova years ago, and it was called an advance rather than a loan. I suppose it could be considered an interest-free loan of sorts. The advance was 120,000 yen to be paid back over the first three full paycheques and pretty much every new arrival did it, so that's a lot of people. I don't recall feeling that desperate about it... |
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