Job Discussion Forums

veiledsentiments · Joined: 20 Feb 2003 Posts: 17644 Location: USA

Other than a possible uptick in the salary, the rest of it is generally not negotiable. And while some may suggest that it is and even pencil in some change... don't count on getting it. Those who parse the contract and try to nitpick every detail either are dropped from consideration or have their changes ignored once they arrive.

VS

doner · Joined: 21 Jan 2010 Posts: 179

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

I wonder about the "contracts" for those on business visas. How do you suppose the Labour Court will view them ?

doner · Joined: 21 Jan 2010 Posts: 179

They are not contracts.

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

................................but some posters are encouraging people to come on these "contracts", rather than on a legit Employment visa with Iqama.

doner · Joined: 21 Jan 2010 Posts: 179

A contract by definition has to be legal. If it is not then it is just a worthless piece of paper.

johnslat · Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:07 pm Post subject:

Dear doner,

"A contract by definition has to be legal. If it is not then it is just a worthless piece of paper."

Exactly - and that's what these "contracts" are, the ones that bring teachers over on other than legitimate employment visas.

Reminds me a bit of the old Samuel Goldwyn quote:

"A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on."

Regards,
John

doner · Joined: 21 Jan 2010 Posts: 179

They are not contracts so stop referring to them as contracts.

Cleopatra · Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:19 pm Post subject:

While I agree that it's far from the norm, it is occasionally possible to negotiate your contract. I know people who have got substanial salary increases and/or better benefits just by asking nicely!

However, this will only happen if the employer really want you - and it helps if you have something special to offer them and/or you have personal contacts with someone at the institution. It is, I would say, very unlikely that you could negotiate at all with the big contracters - they seem to operate on a 'take it or leave it' basis. Still, no harm in asking. But don't push it too far, at least not if you want the job.

johnslat · Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:22 pm Post subject:

Dear doner,

You seem to assume that the term "illegal contract" is an oxymoron, but that's not the case.

"Legality

The last requirement of a valid contract is that its provisions be legal.
If a purported contract requires an illegal act, the result is a void
contract. Parties to an illegal contract have no standing in court. If one
party receives money or property under an illegal contract, the other may not sue to recover what was paid under the contract. Not only are
contracts requiring criminal acts illegal, so are contracts requiring
commission of a TORT (a breach of civil law such as misrepresentation or
trespass) or those in breach of public policy. Although public policy is
difficult to define, it includes some serious breaches of conventional
morality or ethics."

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/bul03.htm

"Illegal Contracts

Illegal contracts are those to which the ex turpi causa principle applies. This may occur where the contract is expressly or impliedly prohibited by statute, or where there is a contravention of public policy at common law where the contract is for an illegal or immoral purpose.
Formed vs Performed

If there was a way in which the contract could have been performed without infringing the prohibition the contract will be illegal as performed. If not, it will be illegal as formed.

Illegal by Statute

Express Prohibition

A contract may be expressly prohibited by statute as formed or performed eg. �contracts entered into for the capture of stray dogs are prohibited in the absence of the catcher possessing a current licence�: Re Mahmoud and Ispahani."

http://tinyurl.com/yfxhce3

Regards,
John

doner · Joined: 21 Jan 2010 Posts: 179

US law is not valid in Saudi Arabia.

johnslat · Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:49 pm Post subject:

Dear doner,

An illegal contract is an illegal contract no matter what country is involved.
And, what makes it even worse, contract law in Saudi isn't even codified (surprise, surprise.)

"Saudi Arabian law is characterized by its multiple sources and by its complex and evolving content. It is highly specific and operates using original and autonomous concepts. Notably, Saudi Arabian contract law is not codified. It is formed principally, from the prescriptions and provisions of Islamic law as they were received and defined by the jurisconsults and scholars of the Hanbali School or tradition of Muslim law."

http://www.benlawyers.com/law/saudi-arabian-law-206.html

Moreover, whether a contract is legal or illegal is pretty much irrelevant since the only thing that usually matters in Saudi is The Law of Wasta - and it's the employers who have that, not the employees.

Regards,
John

doner · Joined: 21 Jan 2010 Posts: 179

Read an English translation of the Saudi Labour Law.

johnslat · Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:20 pm Post subject:

Dear doner,

Don't have to - after having spent nineteen years in the Kingdom, I believe I have a fairly good idea of what goes on.
Moreover, I wouldn't trust an "English translation" of Saudi labor law (Saudi, by the way, is not exactly renowned as a "country of law"; it's much more a "country of wasta") any more than I'd trust the English translation of a contract (a legal or illegal one.)

Regards,
John

doner · Joined: 21 Jan 2010 Posts: 179

The labour law works but takes time.