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tipo
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 23
Location: Japan
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 Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:04 am Post subject: Shakai Hoken - Health and Pension Insurance |
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To all those people who are contemplating coming to Japan to teach English whether it be as an ALT or at a privately owned English school. A planned law change linking visa renewal to enrolement onto a health and insurance plan is due to take place on April 1st 2010. It appears that Interglobal or any other private health insurance plan will no longer be acceptable.
These are the three options open to an employer/employee. They are
Shakai Hoken - this covers both health and pension insurance. 50/50 contributions are made by both the employee and employer.
Shigaku Kyousai - if your school belongs to a Mutual Aid Society then this is a possible option. Again contributions are made by both employer/employee.
The Kokumin Kenko or Kokumin Nenkin Hoken health/pension insurance plan or NHI is probably not the best option as it is designed for self employed or unemployed people.
DO NOT let your employer tell you that you cannot enrole onto the Shakai Hoken because you work less than 30 hours a week. This is a misrepresentation of current laws in Japan.
Enrolling onto an appropriate health/pension insurance plan is vital if you wish to keep your work visa to remain in Japan. I hope you find this information useful. For further information I would suggest that you consult with the Genral Union website. http://www.generalunion.org
Good luck in Japan!
Tipo
Last edited by tipo on Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:39 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:21 am Post subject: |
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It always was mandatory- companies just did everything they could to avoid paying it, and could get away with it. Apparently, the requirement to show proof of this enrolment when you go to get your visa renewed was dropped because it violates people's freedom of choice or something, and so we are back to companies being able to get away with it.
A search on this subject will show about a billion threads when people who have been here for years were panicking over the possibility of having to pay back a tonne o' cash that they don't have. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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tipo,
Please provide some documented proof of what is to be considered acceptable and unacceptable. I don't think anything has even at this late date been stated.
The General Union site certainly doesn't, as far as I can see.
What's the difference in health insurance plans? (Dec. 2009)
http://www.generalunion.org/News/631
A partial win at ECC.
http://www.generalunion.org/ecc/
Relation to visa (July 2009)
http://www.generalunion.org/News/526
This refers to visa renewal only, and the site itself says:
"The General Union will shortly be negotiating with the Ministry, seeking clarification of the issues the new guidelines raise."
More on insurance vs. PT hours
http://www.generalunion.org/News/560
tipo,
You write as if you were a union rep. So far as I can see, the GU page doesn't support some of your claims. Be careful you don't mislead people here. |
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tipo
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 23
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:42 am Post subject: Shakai Hoken - Health and Pension Insurance |
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Thank you Glenski. Please allow me to clarify the position. What I meant by acceptable and unacceptable health and pension insurance plans are as follows. Acceptable health and pension insurance plans are either shakai hoken and shigaku kyosai. Unacceptable health and pension insurance plans are Inter Global or any other private health insurance plan. The Kokumen Kenko/Nenkin Hoken or NHI although available is probably not the best option unless you are self employed or unemployed. The following blurb is a direct quote from the General Union's website. "The kokumen Kenko/Nenkin was not designed to cover employed persons, but rather those with no income or fixed income i.e unemployed or self employed. If you work you should be enrolled in the shakai hoken or shigaku kyosai and your employer must pay 50% of your premiums.
The Health Insurance Law (Article 3) and the Employee Pension Insurance Law (Article 12) both dictate enrolment in the shakai hoken of most employees at applicable workplaces regardless of work hours.
There are only 8 exceptions stipulated in the above laws. They are:
1. sailors
2. those employed less than two months
3. those employed at workplaces without fixed addresses
4. seasonal workers
5. employees of enterprises that will be in existence for less than 6 months
6. those employed by the Hational Health Insurance Union
7. those over 75 years old
8. those authorised by the director of the Social Insurance Agency(SIA) or by a health insurance or mutual aid society.
The claim that part-time workers qualify if they work 3/4 or more of the hours of a full-time worker is a misrepresentation of the 1980 and 2005 SIA directives. These internal directives were addressed to local SIA offices are operational guidelines for enforcement of the laws, NOT for enrolment criteria. Unfortunately, the SIA has turned a blind eye and in some cases have openly collaborated with management in their illegal non-enrolment of employees. Many employers were/are evading Article 3 of the Health Insurance Law by not enrolling their employees".
To sum up the most suitable health and pension insurance plans available to workers in Japan are the shakai hoken and the shigaku kyosai and your employer must pay 50% of your premiums.
So, therefore the Kokumen Kenko/Nenkin Hoken or NHI is probably NOT the best option if you are employed by a company or a school.
END OF STORY
Last edited by tipo on Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:02 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Ryu Hayabusa
Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 182
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
So, therefore the Kokumen Kenko/Nenkin Hoken or NHI is NOT acceptable or appropriate if you are employed by a company or a school.
END OF STORY |
You're saying that NHI isn't acceptable when renewing one's visa? Then perhaps I'm reading a different bedtime story because I was able to renew my visa (August 2009) with no trouble.
I say from first-hand experience that NHI is acceptable and appropriate health coverage. |
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GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:33 am Post subject: |
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He's obviously just saying that just about everyone who actually works should be on some sort of Shakai Hoken system, because that's the law- and he seems to keep proving it. Obviously, companies would rather not pay for health insurance, so they try to get people to enrol on the government health insurance plan (in the good cases) and tell them that it's better to just be on traveller's insurance (in the bad). Nobody who has the power to act against this occurring seems to care, so he wants people to refuse point blank to employers, who in all likelihood will say, "Hmmmm.... we checked and you're absolutely right. Oh! by the way we just started a new policy and for some reason are unable to hire / place you [and really, only you] at the present time".
I've been told that it's also illegal to discriminate on the basis of age in this country, as well- but it happens very frequently to foreigners and Japanese people alike. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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tipo,
Your quote does not answer my question, and it does not even support your supposition.
Please cite the exact union web page for that quote. No, let me do it for you, since it is important and you have a typo in it, amazing with a copy/paste option:
http://www.generalunion.org/News/633
December 2009
Oh, and you conveniently forgot to quote the upper part of that page:
| Quote: |
Know your rights. Know your obligations. Know your employer's obligations!
All registered residents of Japan must be enrolled in one of the appropriate social health care and pension insurance systems: Employees� Health and Pension Insurance (Shakai Hoken), Private Schools Mutual Aid (Shigaku Kyosai), or National Health and Pension Insurance (Kokumin Kenko/Nenkin Hoken), as well as some other public schemes.
Using any other private insurance plan as your sole provider fails to meet your legal obligations.
Those employed at workplaces with five or more employees should be paying into Shakai Hoken or Shigaku Kyosai. |
Furthermore, here is a quote from the GU page 25 July 2009...
http://www.generalunion.org/News/558
...that actually contradicts what you just wrote after the quote:
| Quote: |
Recently announced changes to immigration guidelines link your visa to enrollment in government approved health insurance. This means kokumin kenko hoken or shakai hoken/shigaku kyosai (Employee's Health & Pension).
Talks between the Union & Immigration has confirmed this. Being enrolled in insurances such as Interglobal, Global Health, or Vida Vida will not satisfy immigration. The guidelines will be enforced from April 2010 but there is already antecdotal evidence that it is beginning earlier.
This leaves you with two options -
Be insured through your employer on shakai hoken/shigaku kyosai or enroll yourself on kokumin kenko hoken through your ward office. |
Now, what I really wanted was documented proof that what you said earlier was true, that kokumin kenko hoken by itself was not an acceptable form of NHI for visa renewal. You have not provided that. To say "therefore the Kokumen Kenko/Nenkin Hoken or NHI is NOT acceptable or appropriate if you are employed by a company or a school" is clouding the issue. It's not appropriate for a FT employee of a company or school, yes, but the issue here is twofold: that of visa renewal requirements and that of whether employers are being held to the law (they aren't) to enroll employees in the right insurance.
The government has not cracked down on employers who refuse to admit people to shakai hoken, and they are not going to hold it against anyone if they have kokumin instead. Show me otherwise in official documentation. So far, your quote has only supported me, especially in the last 2 sentences, as I've just explained. |
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tipo
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 23
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:34 pm Post subject: Shakai Hoken - Health and Pension Insurance |
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Glenski, for visa renewal purposes after April 1st 2010 for most foreign employees there will be two health and pension insurance plans available they are shakai hoken and shigaku kyosai. If on the other hand you are self employed or unemployed then the NHI is available to you for visa renewal purposes. This would only affect a small number of foreigners living in Japan.
This was highlighted by Louis Carlet deputy secretary of the National Union of General Workers Tokyo Nambu on July 28th 2009 in The Japan Times. According to Carlet after having discussions with government officials he was left in no doubt that employers will have to enrole their employees onto the shakai hoken.
Last edited by tipo on Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:08 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:18 pm Post subject: Re: Shakai Hoken - Health and Pension Insurance |
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| tipo wrote: |
| Glenski, for visa renewal purposes after April 1st 2010 for all foreign employees there will be only two health and pension insurance plans available they are shakai hoken and shigaku kyosai. If on the other hand you are self employed or unemployed then the NHI is available to you for visa renewal purposes. This would only affect a small number of foreigners living in Japan. |
I think you are very wrong about that "small number". Very wrong!
| Quote: |
| This was highlighted by Louis Carlet deputy secretary of the National Union of General Workers Tokyo Nambu on July 28th 2009 in The Japan Times. According to Carlet after having discussions with government officials he was left in no doubt that employers will have to enrole their employees onto the shakai hoken. |
The Japan Times story you cite is here.
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20090728zg.html
I've seen this ages ago. It does say this about the insurance needed for renewal:
According to a new Immigration Bureau guideline passed by the Diet earlier this month, foreign residents will be required to show proof of enrollment in Japan's health insurance program in order to renew or apply for a visa after April 1, 2010.
It says nothing about "small numbers" of foreigners being on kokumin. If the "many" people (quoted word used by the article/Carlet more than once) who are not on shakai hoken have opted for kokumin instead in an effort to have some protection/insurance, then your statement above is completely false.
Yes, Carlet said this (quoted from the JT):
If you are under 75 and working at a company that employs more than five people, this most likely means the shakai hoken (social insurance) program; if you are unemployed, self-employed or retired, the equivalent system is the kokumin kenko hoken and kokumin nenkin (national health insurance and pension). The only people exempt are sailors, day laborers, and those working for companies employing less than five people, or for firms without a permanent address (e.g. a film set).
Carlet is also mentioned as saying:
The bottom line is that all residents of Japan (except those mentioned above) have to be enrolled in one or other of the two systems. The revised visa guidelines, therefore, should pose no threat to anyone's visa renewal, because every foreigner in Japan should already be enrolled.
Problem is, what people should have been doing (enrolling in the system) and what has actually happened (even described by the JT) is different. Many people have not been on any form of NHI (shakai or kokumin), and some have not even heard they needed to! Strange but true, and also cited in the article.
Two key points also come up from the article:
Unfortunately, many companies get away with hiring foreigners without enrolling them in pension and insurance plans because the SIA tends not to crack down on employers with uninsured workers unless certain standards are violated. For example, companies legally have to enroll part-timers if they have been working for the firm more than two months, but the SIA doesn't necessarily investigate unless an employee is working three-quarters of the hours of a full-time employee (30 hours in most cases). Some language schools get around this by counting only the lesson hours of their employees (28 hours per week maximum) and ignoring their preparation time, while others claim their instructors are subcontractors, who are not eligible for benefits, rather than actual employees.
I've already mentioned the above in other posts. The JT article itself says nobody knows why insurance is now being tied to visa renewal. The government is tight-lipped about it, and even after a grassroots group fought the proposal (and supposedly won and got an insider in the gov to respond), nothing more has been forthcoming to explain whether other insurance plans (J or otherwise) will be acceptable.
Point 2:
When national health insurance becomes a visa condition in April,
This is important. The word "a". "A" condition, not an overriding one. The insider I mentioned said that there would be more factors to consider, too.
Should people be on either of the NHI plans? Yes, according to law, and I think this is what you are so strongly advocating. Will they be forced to? Hard to say at this point. One thing the article and Carlet failed to mention was that despite the law, even many Japanese have avoided the same insurance plans. Who is going to go after them, especially since they won't have a visa requirement hanging over their heads?
Bottom line? There is none clearly stated by the government yet. People are still in the dark about what will and will not be accepted. The fat lady has not yet sung. |
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Pitarou
Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: Narita, Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:49 am Post subject: I hope this clarifies things |
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To anyone who is confused about Health Insurance: please ignore this whole thread. tipo may find it unacceptable that schools do not offer shakai hoken / shigaku kyousai, but the Immigration Department has no problem with it.
tipo: Fomenting dissent amongst the workers is a noble calling, but causing confusion helps no-one. Glenski has already pointed out that your claim that the 30 hour rule no longer applies is unsubstantiated. I would add that, while it may be true that the 30 hour rule is a "misrepresentation", this misrepresentation has the force of precedent. Precedent matters in Japan. Precedents can be overturned, but just shouting END OF STORY won't make it happen. |
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tipo
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 23
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:44 am Post subject: Shakai Hoken - Health and Pension Insurance |
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Pitarou, after April this year the Immigration may have some issue whether NHI is acceptable or not that largely depends with ongoing discussions between the government and the unions.
The unions have NEVER recognised the 30 hour rule as a criteria for enrolement onto the SH in particular the GU. The GU has had a number of success stories in this area where GU members at a number of schools have been successfully enroled. I have been a strong union advocate in Japan for a number of years I have stood outside ECC head office in Osaka demanding that ECC enrole its teachers onto the SH. We won that fight. I have stood ouside Kobe Shoin Joshidaigaku demanding that it cancel its illegal dispatch contract. And we won that fight also. Yes, I have done my fair share of shouting. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:54 am Post subject: Re: Shakai Hoken - Health and Pension Insurance |
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| tipo wrote: |
| Pitarou, after April this year the Immigration may have some issue whether NHI is acceptable or not that largely depends with ongoing discussions between the government and the unions. |
According to you, however, April will be too late. It's great that the union has discussions with the gov about all this. I hope they get what they want.
Until then, you say kokumin is not acceptable in April. I say you haven't proven it yet.
Prove it!
Everything else you just wrote is wasted text. |
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tipo
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 23
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:19 am Post subject: Shakai Hoken - Health and Pension Insurance |
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Glenski, I said "after April this year immigration may have some issue whether NHI is acceptable...." The modal verb I used is "may have", not "will".
Time will prove whether I'm right or wrong. |
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Pitarou
Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: Narita, Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I have been a strong union advocate in Japan for a number of years I have stood outside ECC head office in Osaka demanding that ECC enrole its teachers onto the SH. |
I think General Union would be quite concerned if they knew you were telling teachers that "the Immigration may have some issue whether NHI is acceptable". Glenski has already pointed out that this contradicts what GU are saying. |
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GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:04 am Post subject: Shakai Hoken - Health and Pension Insurance
...
Last edited by tipo on Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
| Quote: |
Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:42 pm Post subject: Shakai Hoken - Health and Pension Insurance
...
Last edited by tipo on Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
| Quote: |
Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:19 pm Post subject: Shakai Hoken - Health and Pension Insurance
after April this year immigration may have some issue whether NHI is acceptable...." The modal verb I used is "may have", not "will".
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Are you for real? You edited all of your first statements within a couple of hours, and then say try to say that you never implied it was a fact, when people have been jumping down your throat for saying it's a fact since the thread began.
You never responded to my initial response. If you search, then you'll find that somebody posted a link or just about the requirement of proof of enrolment having been dropped.
found it:
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=76950&highlight=insurance
here's the link to the news article (note that it's dated last NOVEMBER, after the information you've been going on about):
http://www.eltnews.com/news/archives/2009/11/immigration_gui.html
(in case you've forgotten, or decide to just edit out what you already wrote:)
| tipo wrote: |
after April 1st 2010 for most foreign employees there will be two health and pension insurance plans available they are shakai hoken and shigaku kyosai. If on the other hand you are self employed or unemployed then the NHI is available to you for visa renewal purposes. This would only affect a small number of foreigners living in Japan.
This was highlighted by Louis Carlet deputy secretary of the National Union of General Workers Tokyo Nambu on July 28th 2009 in The Japan Times. According to Carlet after having discussions with government officials he was left in no doubt that employers will have to enrole their employees onto the shakai hoken. |
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