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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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 Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| creztor, except China does give you a free apartment. Thus in some ways it is better. Not to mention that most jobs in China give you a set salary unlike Taiwan. |
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creztor
Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 476
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| JZer, just by nature I don't like to think things are better on the other side of the fence, but I do agree things are making China seem like a much better choice for anyone who wants to make some money teaching. I am just shocked that Rooster has had such a difficult time finding work, a very bleak outlook indeed. |
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markcmc
Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 262
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| Rooster_2006 wrote: |
I hear what you're saying and agree with most of it, JZer (except about Taiwan not being a developed country, I think it is, and I know that 30,000 is less than what the average Taiwanese makes).
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The average Taiwanese person does not make this much money for the same hours you would as a teacher. According to the Taipei Times (24/09/09) the average Taiwanese salary is 36,564NT. That's for a more full time job than the average English teacher. The average professional worker earns less than 50,000NT.
One problem in Taiwan is the steadily falling birthrate. More schools competing for less and less students. |
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Rooster_2006
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| markcmc wrote: |
| Rooster_2006 wrote: |
I hear what you're saying and agree with most of it, JZer (except about Taiwan not being a developed country, I think it is, and I know that 30,000 is less than what the average Taiwanese makes).
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The average Taiwanese person does not make this much money for the same hours you would as a teacher. According to the Taipei Times (24/09/09) the average Taiwanese salary is 36,564NT. That's for a more full time job than the average English teacher. The average professional worker earns less than 50,000NT.
One problem in Taiwan is the steadily falling birthrate. More schools competing for less and less students. |
So?
I WANT to work more hours, but can't.
The highest hourly wage in the world is useless if you're not able to find any work. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| markcmc wrote: |
| Rooster_2006 wrote: |
I hear what you're saying and agree with most of it, JZer (except about Taiwan not being a developed country, I think it is, and I know that 30,000 is less than what the average Taiwanese makes).
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The average Taiwanese person does not make this much money for the same hours you would as a teacher. According to the Taipei Times (24/09/09) the average Taiwanese salary is 36,564NT. That's for a more full time job than the average English teacher. The average professional worker earns less than 50,000NT.
One problem in Taiwan is the steadily falling birthrate. More schools competing for less and less students. |
Yes, my friend with an MBA only makes 50,000 a month. Of course he does get a nice bonus at the end of the year. |
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markcmc
Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 262
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:51 am Post subject: |
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I understand that the salaries in Taiwan are not very high. My point was that when you teach in a country, it's normal that the salary will reflect the local situation.
Some schools in Taiwan do give bonuses as well. Yes, I know, not so many, but they are there. Universities also pay 13 months salary a year. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| markcmc wrote: |
I understand that the salaries in Taiwan are not very high. My point was that when you teach in a country, it's normal that the salary will reflect the local situation.
Some schools in Taiwan do give bonuses as well. Yes, I know, not so many, but they are there. Universities also pay 13 months salary a year. |
Except that some Taiwanese yearly bonus equals 12 months of salary and not one month. I know several people who make 600,000 in bonuses a year. |
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markcmc
Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 262
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| Well, that's really good, but, perhaps not common. What kind of jobs do they have? |
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Rooster_2006
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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Now, please don't misinterpret this list -- I like Taiwan and many of the problems that I mention are far less severe in Taiwan than in other Asian countries, but I believe we deserve every penny of our salaries, and I don't buy into this "you so lucky, you make so much money per hour" BS, and I'll explain why.
I don't think you can really compare Taiwanese salaries and foreigner salaries, because:
1. Most Taiwanese in their 20s live at home to economize, which is obviously not an option for most of us.
2. Taiwanese get regular status. We don't. We're contract workers, and can be fired at any time.
3. They don't have to fly around the world to get the job, nor do they have to pay for work permits (yes, I was asked to pay for mine), visas, trips to the immigration office or labor bureau, etc.
4. They can work in many sectors, we're limited to just one.
5. Teaching is easier for the Taiwanese because unlike us, students respect and fear them. The students don't have to respect us. Even if we learn Chinese, we are often forbidden from using it in the classroom.
6. They get benefits that we usually don't, like yearly bonuses.
7. They get advancement opportunities, something not open to most of us.
8. They don't have to hear "waiguoren" every five seconds when walking around in public places.
9. They don't have to worry about getting fired and having only seven days to find another job or lose ARC status, the same way we do.
10. They have been living in Taiwan in most cases for all their lives, so an average salary of 36,000 would go much further than it will for the average fresh-off-the-plane teacher.
After all these points, I think it's ludicrous to say that it's acceptable to pay foreign teachers here less than 30,000 NTD. Saying that a foreign teacher's situation is better than a Taiwanese teacher's situation is just plain illogical for the ten reasons I gave.
If you don't think that foreign teachers deserve to get paid 30,000 NTD a month, how much do you think we should get paid? 25,000? 20,000? Keep in mind that once you head south of 20,000, you're heading into illegal sub-minimum-wage territory... |
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markcmc
Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 262
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Rooster_2006 wrote: |
Now, please don't misinterpret this list -- I like Taiwan and many of the problems that I mention are far less severe in Taiwan than in other Asian countries, but I believe we deserve every penny of our salaries, and I don't buy into this "you so lucky, you make so much money per hour" BS, and I'll explain why.
I don't think you can really compare Taiwanese salaries and foreigner salaries, because:
1. Most Taiwanese in their 20s live at home to economize, which is obviously not an option for most of us.
2. Taiwanese get regular status. We don't. We're contract workers, and can be fired at any time.
3. They don't have to fly around the world to get the job, nor do they have to pay for work permits (yes, I was asked to pay for mine), visas, trips to the immigration office or labor bureau, etc.
4. They can work in many sectors, we're limited to just one.
5. Teaching is easier for the Taiwanese because unlike us, students respect and fear them. The students don't have to respect us. Even if we learn Chinese, we are often forbidden from using it in the classroom.
6. They get benefits that we usually don't, like yearly bonuses.
7. They get advancement opportunities, something not open to most of us.
8. They don't have to hear "waiguoren" every five seconds when walking around in public places.
9. They don't have to worry about getting fired and having only seven days to find another job or lose ARC status, the same way we do.
10. They have been living in Taiwan in most cases for all their lives, so an average salary of 36,000 would go much further than it will for the average fresh-off-the-plane teacher.
After all these points, I think it's ludicrous to say that it's acceptable to pay foreign teachers here less than 30,000 NTD. Saying that a foreign teacher's situation is better than a Taiwanese teacher's situation is just plain illogical for the ten reasons I gave.
If you don't think that foreign teachers deserve to get paid 30,000 NTD a month, how much do you think we should get paid? 25,000? 20,000? Keep in mind that once you head south of 20,000, you're heading into illegal sub-minimum-wage territory... |
I'm not sure if your comments were aimed at me, as I have never said, or even thought, that English teachers should only receive 30,000NT a month. My point was that to get this income would only involve working part time (for most English teachers), and so was not comparable to someone working full time to earn the same, or the unfortunate workers earning the minimum wage of 17, 280NT.
On your points:
1. This is true.
2. If you have an ARC and contract you do have some rights. You can be fired, but so can a local Taiwanese. I know the situation is not the same as North America or Europe; and perhaps it should change, but that's another topic.
3. True, but it's your choice.
4. Not true. Non Taiwanese can work in other areas, and can set up businesses locally.
5. Fear is not necessary, or even helpful, in gaining respect. I feel I had respect when I taught in Taiwan, and I never tried to instill fear. In fact one Taiwanese teacher there was fired on the spot for trying to do precisely this. Some schools like their teachers to speak some Chinese; although obviously not too much when teaching. It's a matter or choosing the school you work for carefully.
6. Work for schools which do give yearly/end of contract bonuses.
7. Advancement is possible with creativity. You could open your own school, work for a university or bigger organization with more opportunities.
8. This can be irritating, but it has improved over the years. However, how is this relevant to the size of the salary?
9. The second part is true.
10. True, but again, nobody is saying you have to accept 36,000NT.
How much should we get paid? Hard to say, it depends on the kind of teaching you are doing, your qualifications, your experience and whether you can put that experience to good use. I think over 50,000NT at least, 60,000NT would be better. If the job is full time. But if it's only 15 hours a week, then less would be ok.
I think all teachers deserve to be well paid, but I'm just pointing out that if the job is really part time, then 30,000NT may be a good salary. |
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creztor
Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 476
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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I have to agree with Rooster, although we do make the choice to stay here. I have noted other people saying in other threads that there is opportunity outside of teaching etc. This is true, but let's face facts, they are not as easily found as if a Taiwanese immigrated to the USA, they have a much broader spectrum of work that they can realistically get into. I know someone might say it all depends on your attitude and everything else, but the truth is the majority of westerners in Taiwan will only ever be able to work in some position that is related to teaching English. People who move to Australia have the opportunity to work in many positions beyond just teaching their own language. Learn Chinese you say? Sure, definitely good for your own business/operation you setup but I don't think it is that great for finding work. Taiwanese bosses know they can exploit their local brothers and sisters and pay them less than what the whitey will probably ask for. Beer and skittles  Life is too short. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
I don't think you can really compare Taiwanese salaries and foreigner salaries, because:
1. Most Taiwanese in their 20s live at home to economize, which is obviously not an option for most of us.
2. Taiwanese get regular status. We don't. We're contract workers, and can be fired at any time.
3. They don't have to fly around the world to get the job, nor do they have to pay for work permits (yes, I was asked to pay for mine), visas, trips to the immigration office or labor bureau, etc.
4. They can work in many sectors, we're limited to just one.
5. Teaching is easier for the Taiwanese because unlike us, students respect and fear them. The students don't have to respect us. Even if we learn Chinese, we are often forbidden from using it in the classroom.
6. They get benefits that we usually don't, like yearly bonuses.
7. They get advancement opportunities, something not open to most of us.
8. They don't have to hear "waiguoren" every five seconds when walking around in public places.
9. They don't have to worry about getting fired and having only seven days to find another job or lose ARC status, the same way we do.
10. They have been living in Taiwan in most cases for all their lives, so an average salary of 36,000 would go much further than it will for the average fresh-off-the-plane teacher. |
I agree mostly with what you said. But at the same time Taiwan is employing many English teachers that are really needed. A large percentage of children who study English just forget it in junior high and high school. They would be about the same if they had never received any English instruction from foreign teachers. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| 6. Work for schools which do give yearly/end of contract bonuses. |
Rooster can't find a full time job period let alone one with a bonus.
Last edited by JZer on Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Rooster_2006
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
| Quote: |
| 6. Work for schools which do give yearly/end of contract bonuses. |
Rooster can['t] find a full time job period let alone one with a bonus. |
I'm working on it, but I'll be happy just to find a monthly paycheck over 30,000 -- I'm not going to push it and try to get a bonus. Had another interview yesterday (Interview #5 since deciding to find more work). We don't know if I was accepted or not, but given that the last four interviews with teaching demos ended in rejection, this one will probably be no different. Even so, I'm interviewing at TWO places on Friday.
Anyways, it just irks me so much when people compare salaries for locals and foreigner salaries.
And what REALLY irks me is when people compare the salaries of an office worker and teacher and conclude that the teacher has it "easy" because "he only works 20 hours a week," showing complete ignorance of lesson prep time, grading homework, writing comments for the parents, special events like Christmas and Halloween, company meetings, dead space between classes, etc.
For an extreme version of this, courtesy of Dick Morris:
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College costs are as high as they are because the institutions coddle their faculty letting them off with work weeks that we would find laughable while they increase their administrative costs and debt out of all proportion to reality.
It would be one thing if students and their parents had to scrimp and save and borrow and compromise to pay the necessary costs of college. But the plain fact is that they are doing so in order to let faculty members teach five classes a year, spending only 18-20 hours in the classroom per week! |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:46 am Post subject: |
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And what REALLY irks me is when people compare the salaries of an office worker and teacher and conclude that the teacher has it "easy" because "he only works 20 hours a week," showing complete ignorance of lesson prep time, grading homework, writing comments for the parents, special events like Christmas and Halloween, company meetings, dead space between classes, etc.
For an extreme version of this, courtesy of Dick Morris: |
Actually that is not complete ignorance. At least for high school and middle school teachers. I know that several teachers in my high school never took any work home. Even one teacher said, I will hand back you test after I have time during the school day to check them. Some teachers use the pre-made test by the publishing companies and check all test during class time. At least in the US it is possible to be a teacher who does little work after 2:30PM or when ever shool gets out. |
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