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7168Riyadh
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 149
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 Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:58 pm Post subject: about the biz visas |
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There are currently about 170 teachers on the male campus/KSU PYP. I think business visas were used to get people in situ quickly, and some people I know will be converting to working visas soon. By the way, the ones on business visas were all from the US and not hired directly by Bell. They do, however, come under Bell management.
Personally speaking, I would never have accepted a business visa arrangement. |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| But some posters are telling people that is the only way to do it ! My suspicion is that such posters are far removed from daily life in the "Kingdom of Humanity". |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| I think business visas were used to get people in situ quickly, and some people I know will be converting to working visas soon. |
I think there's a big difference between the situation you describe, and one where the employer never has the intention (or the ability) to get an igama for the teacher. It might be worth considering a job where you are brought over on a business visa provided you get a written assurance that it will be converted to a work visa asap upon arrival. Of course you have no way of knowing in advance if such a promise will be honoured, but that's the risk you take when agreeing to work in a foreign country.
I don't think anyone shoudl consider coming to KSA if they are going to be here permanently on an illegal basis. That is simply asking for trouble. |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| .................................but some posters assure us that being illegal is actually ADVANTAGEOUS. |
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desert_traveller
Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:15 am Post subject: |
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business visas cannot be 'converted' into proper work visas, unless your employer has extremely thick wasta, which most in the field of EFL do not
what can be done is that you come in on a business visa and then once the work visa is ready for you you go back home, forfeit your business visa and get the new work visa
if that is the case it is probably just better to wait until the proper work visa comes out for you and then fly in on it
once you are in the country on whatever kind of visa, your employer will suddenly lose interest in any sort of 'conversion' of visas, as ... why would they make an effort when you are already in post? they will keep telling you 'yes yes maybe next week, its very difficult and we are doing our best' but in fact, they will be quite complacent with you being there on any kind of visa and making the SAME amount of money for them as if you were there on a proper work visa
unless you are in for a quick fix to your bank account and nothing else, do not ever go to the ksa on a visitor visa |
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7168Riyadh
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| what can be done is that you come in on a business visa and then once the work visa is ready for you you go back home, forfeit your business visa and get the new work visa |
That is what I meant by "convert", perhaps not the best choice of word. The process involves you leaving the country on your biz/visitor visa, and returning on the working visa. Same process in most countries.
Being on a business visa does have one advantage--you can more easily disentagle yourself from an employer if you dont like them. However, as many have advised on this forum, it is far better to pick your employer with care beforehand, and this most especially applies in Saudi Arabia where you effectively become an indentured worker once in situ. |
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Citizenkane
Joined: 14 Jun 2009
Posts: 234
Location: Xanadu
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| what can be done is that you come in on a business visa and then once the work visa is ready for you you go back home, forfeit your business visa and get the new work visa |
It's not always necessary to go back home. I know people who've come to the Kingdom on business visas, and within a few weeks/months they travelled to Bahrain to get a proper work visa. It can be done.
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Being on a business visa does have one advantage--you can more easily disentagle yourself from an employer if you dont like them. |
Yes. And vice versa. |
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Kalima Shahada
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Posts: 198
Location: I live in a house, but my home is in the stable.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| scot47 wrote: |
| .................................but some posters assure us that being illegal is actually ADVANTAGEOUS. |
You bet there is:
cyras wrote:
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| Thank you, Mr. Clopatra and Mr. Jones for the useful replies. I was weighing up the pros and cons of working on business/visit visa. Where there are lots of disadvantages teaching on business visa in KSA, there seems one advantage that you will not be asked by the embassy for the NOC in that situation. This is just my assumption. What do you think? |
Cleopatra wrote:
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There are numerous threads on this, but in brief, if you have a job offer but no NOC, you will have to 'lose' your passport and apply for a new visa with the new passport. However, some employers won't take you without an NOC, even if you're prepared to 'lose' your passport. This is because they are technically breaking the law by taking you on without an NOC.
The wording in the contract is actually quite superflouous.
In order to obtain another job in KSA, you have to ask your employer for a "No Objection Cert' (NOC) which states that they have, um, no objection to you taking another job in the Kingdom after finishing your contract with them. However,they are under no obligation whatsoever to give you this certificate, and many - maybe most - employers do not give them. |
That's a pretty big advantage I'd say! No need for an NOC, which most employers do not give anyway. Then you don't have to 'lose' your passport in order to find a new job in the KSA.
Let me add a few more advantages:
* it's cheaper - sometimes a whole LOT cheaper
* it's MUCH easier to obtain for both employee and employer
* it takes less time - sometimes saving over six months of time!
* there are far less steps involved as the necessary paperwork is minimized
* there is no need for a medical examination so no pain or discomfort. This saves you a whole lot of money too! Also, you don't have to get another one for the Iqama once inside the country, thus saving you the pain and your money twice over.
* get there and decide you don't like it? Just pack up and leave as there is no need for an exit visa.
Last edited by Kalima Shahada on Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Kalima Shahada,
So, how would one account for the "hole" in one's resume?
And wouldn't the "business visa" be in your passport? Don't you think that a new employer might be curious about that?
Regards,
John |
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Kalima Shahada
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Posts: 198
Location: I live in a house, but my home is in the stable.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
Dear Kalima Shahada,
So, how would one account for the "hole" in one's resume?
And wouldn't the "business visa" be in your passport? Don't you think that a new employer might be curious about that?
Regards,
John |
I'm sure people will put it on their resume. I don't see anything wrong with that. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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Let me add a few more advantages:
* it's cheaper - sometimes a whole LOT cheaper |
The visa costs around twenty dollars. The boss is supposed to pay for the iqama, the cost of which is only SR500 a year anyway.
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| * it's MUCH easier to obtain for both employee and employer |
If the company has the block visa then a work visa can be obtained within 48 hours (I know because this happened to me in 1998, including the time to do the medical).
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| * it takes less time - sometimes saving over six months of time! |
See above comment.
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| * there is no need for a medical examination so no pain or discomfort. This saves you a whole lot of money too! Also, you don't have to get another one for the Iqama once inside the country, thus saving you the pain and your money twice over. |
Definitely an advantage if you have a medical condition (dodgy X_Ray or Hep C) that would cause you to fail the medical. No advantage otherwise, as the employer is supposed to pay the costs of the medical exam (and all but one employer I have had has done so, and since the one that wasn't paid was only $25 anyway I wasn't too bothered).
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| * get there and decide you don't like it? Just pack up and leave as there is no need for an exit visa. |
Easier said than done. Most of the complaints we have had here have come from people on a business visa who have had difficulties in leaving. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Kalima Shahada,
So, if they put it on their resume, presumably that would mean that they left their "business visa employer" (OK, an oxymoron) on good terms - e.e., they didn't take advantage of one of your other "advantages" of being illegal, that is leaving without needing an exit visa.
And presumably their new employer is going to see on their resume that they were working before in Saudi but isn't going to ask about that at all?
You know, I rather doubt that.
Regards,
John |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Where I come from inciting people to act illegally is a criminal offence. |
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Kalima Shahada
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Posts: 198
Location: I live in a house, but my home is in the stable.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Let me add a few more advantages:
* it's cheaper - sometimes a whole LOT cheaper |
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| The visa costs around twenty dollars. The boss is supposed to pay for the iqama, the cost of which is only SR500 a year anyway. |
There are a lot more costs involved than the actual cost of the visa from the embassy. Think about the agent's fee, express packages, hotel costs, transportation etc.
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| * it's MUCH easier to obtain for both employee and employer |
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| If the company has the block visa then a work visa can be obtained within 48 hours (I know because this happened to me in 1998, including the time to do the medical). |
I got my work visa in less than one hour after I applied. SO WHAT! That's not the point. You are forgetting about the notorious bureaucracy involved and what many of these embassies put us through to get this visa (documents, documents, documents with beautiful official stamps).
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| * it takes less time - sometimes saving over six months of time! |
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| See above comment. |
Don't foget about the preparation time as well as the time it takes for the employer to apply for the block of work visas. Sometimes it can take them up to one YEAR!
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| * there is no need for a medical examination so no pain or discomfort. This saves you a whole lot of money too! Also, you don't have to get another one for the Iqama once inside the country, thus saving you the pain and your money twice over. |
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| Definitely an advantage if you have a medical condition (dodgy X_Ray or Hep C) that would cause you to fail the medical. No advantage otherwise, as the employer is supposed to pay the costs of the medical exam (and all but one employer I have had has done so, and since the one that wasn't paid was only $25 anyway I wasn't too bothered). |
That's just BS! Did you forget about the blood and stool samples - no pain, no discomfort?! My employer did not reimburse my costs even though it was in the contract. In fact, they didn't reimburse anyone for this cost.
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| * get there and decide you don't like it? Just pack up and leave as there is no need for an exit visa. |
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| Easier said than done. Most of the complaints we have had here have come from people on a business visa who have had difficulties in leaving. |
Most of the complaint on here were from people who found themselves in unfavorable conditions with broken promises regardless of their visa. And there have been people on here who are working on illegal visas who say they are happy, even encouraging others to join them! |
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Kalima Shahada
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Posts: 198
Location: I live in a house, but my home is in the stable.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| scot47 wrote: |
| Where I come from inciting people to act illegally is a criminal offence. |
Would that include falsely reporting a 'lost' passport to your embassy due to the fact that your employer refused a NOC? Or did ALL of your employers furnish you with a NOC - no problem there? And what do you think about all those people who are working without a NOC illegally, but with a new passport because they lied to the embassies? hmmm  |
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