Job Discussion Forums

[RoseMarie]

I think that it's not such a big deal if

- there is not a large age gap:
That's always gross no matter what the situation is and who's older. Frankly, a 45 year old man who dates a 20 year old woman is grosser than a former student-teacher who have a five year age difference dating.
- the student should be a FORMER student and you are no longer in a position of authority over them.
- the former student must not be a minor: That's self evident, I think.

I don't think that a teacher should ever try to initiate a relationship with a student, because it is rather predatory. But, teacher/student relationships are transitory situations. And no, teachers are not Gods. They're just people. If there's a time lapse, and you see a former student who's similar in age to you, and they invite you out for a drink...

It's a dodgy situation but, I've seen many relationships develop out of more questionable circumstances than this.

P.S. I'm assuming that there is a real attraction at some intellectual level as well, and that you aren't planning on using your former student for sex/a fling, but are interested in dating them. If you want sex, then yeah, there are plenty of people out there, besides your former students who knew you and trusted you for some time. Sheesh. Sex with a former student shouldn't be taken lightly.

But when it comes to l'amour, that's different. Dating and getting to know a former student, and then love, and then sex... Who cares if it's not done perversely.

[arioch36]

[Aramas]

This posting has been edited.

rofl - this is pathetic. So many people seemed to have taken up teaching EFL because they weren't smart enough to pursue their true vocation - as a judge.

Anyone that gets on their high horse and tries to interfere in my life solely because their moral compass differs from mine I hope that I get to work with people like that some time so that I can teach them something about consequences. Live and let live, and mind your own fvcking business. Why is that so hard for some people?

I don't give a rat's @rse about the spiteful, vitriolic, holier-than-thou, self-indulgent puritanical drivel that I've seen in this thead and others, but don't point it at me. If you want the authorities to enforce bible-belt values then please stay in the bible-belt. Some of us actually appreciate the irony of freedom in the west becoming nothing more than political rhetoric. Some of us even live the real thing. We follow our own moral compasses and ignore the pitiful braying of the herd. Unsurprisingly it's usually the self-righteous 'conservative' (more irony) conformists that turn out to be pedophiles or serial killers. They spend their whole lives denying their true nature while trying to conform, and all the while their repressed subconscious becomes increasingly sick and twisted. Whackos. May they reap what they sow.

I make my own choices and anyone that doesn't like it can kiss my shiny white cheeks

Edited by Paladin. Why?

"You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use ESL Cafe's Job Discussion Forum to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law"

and

"Dave's ESL Cafe will delete postings which, in the moderator's judgment, are . . .intended to defame or deride; contain vulgar or otherwise objectionable language"

[Shaman]

My boss in Paris told me that several relationships had been struck up at my school and some had led to marriage. Malheuresment, pas pour moi.

However, this was a language school catering to business clients and wasn't predicated upon academic grading. Fates were not hanging in the balance. A failed test didn't relegate one to one of the 3 D jobs.

In an English speaking country, the teacher must cast a wry eye. Could the student have an ulterior motive (ie. extending a stay, perhaps?)

Shaman

[arioch36]

Aramas, I read your post before it was edited. And you were trying your best to be abusive and vulgar within the confines of the editing program that weeds out certain words.

Some of us complain , mostly in jest, about not being able to say things like the plane's cockpit. But Dave's rules for coming here are quite clear. Saying the plane's cockpit doesn't violate the spirit of Dave's rules, just the programming of the editing software.

What you wrote didn't violate the editing program, but did clearly violate the spirit of the rules (saying fecking in an agressive manner certainly does that)

As Slat has writtten clearly (he does a much better job of posting clearly than I do) there are other sites to choose if you don't care for Dave's rules.

In this case, I think the moderator was "spot on" (never heard that before coming to Dave's)

[Cleopatra]

Guty said:

“some teachers work in-company, not in-school, and in some cases they are the youngest, poorest, person with least social kudos in the class. (Try working in-company in Switzerland)”

This is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about. I have quite frequently been in one-to-one teaching situations with very influential businessmen, at least 25 years my senior, who are well-known and very well-connected, and who probably earned more in one week than I earned in one year. To suggest that I – a lowly English teacher who pops in to the office twice a week (that is, when my “student” doesn’t cancel to attend some boardroom meeting or other) - have some sort of “power” over them is ludicrous.

I understand what other posters are getting at – and I totally agree that it is highly inappropriate for teachers to date students in situations where they can influence their grades and are seen as being some sort of authority figure. However, that simply is not the case in much of EFL teaching, where, if anything, it is the student who is the senior figure in the professional relationship. I really don’t think there is much difference between teachers and students dating (in this specific context) than with other co-workers dating.

Arioch wrote:

“Ooh, there's a direct cut. That's a sharp sword you are wielding, Lady Cape”

In fact, I gave my response to Capergirl’s comment many moons ago! As I said, discretion is advised in any relationship between people who happen to be colleagues or co-workers. It’s generally not a great idea to flaunt your relationship around the workplace, in this or any other profession.

[Wolf]

[Capergirl]

[Lanza-Armonia]

This is kind of weird thing but one that needs to be addressed. All necessary point have already been stated so I shall only give my POV. At long as the youngest side of the party, male or female, is at the age of concent <SP?>, what's the problem?

Mind you, the Chinese girls here are so naive and pathetic, I wouldn't look at them twice...

LA

[johnslat]

Dear LA,
Well, it's already been stated, but one more time:

Conflict of interest

If you are dating a student, even one at or above the age of consent, no matter how impartial you may try to be (or, for that matter, how impartial you actually are) in grading that student, your involvement raises what I see to be questions of professional ethics. Everyone has to decide for him/herself, of course, but personally, I wouldn't do it. If it were a student above the age of consent that I was really attracted to, I'd simply wait until she was no longer my student before trying to establish a relationship.

Regards,
John

[Lanza-Armonia]

[johnslat]

Dear LA,
As I said:


"Everyone has to decide for him/herself, of course . . ."

So, while I wouldn't approve of it - it'd really be none of my business.
Everyone has the right to learn the hard way all by him/herself.

Regards,
John

[ntropy]

RoseMarie,


Who are are any of us to judge what relationships are gross and which are not? If a 20-yr-old and and older person want to have a relationship that has no conflict of interest possibilities, why not? That's their business, not yours.

Yes, I am an "older" teacher (eg not in my twenties) and have been hit on by young students. I have zero interest. What the hell would we talk about? But if it works for others, it's none of my business.

Personally, I find relationships where one person has green eyes and the other blue eyes gross. Not as gross as relationships where one person is openminded and the other prejudiced.

[Aramas]

The point I was trying to make earlier is that there are an enormous number of people who view the world through a very twisted imagination. These people are 'justifiers', in that no matter the absence of evidence, or what evidence there might be to the contrary, they always make excuses for why they are right and anyone that disagrees with them is wrong. I don't have a problem with that as long as they keep their sick, perverted views to themselves. But when they inflict it on others, or even rant and bluster about their right and intention to do so, I find it rather annoying. There is a particular politician of note that clearly falls into this category. I don't know what his exact body count is but it's certainly in the tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands. Such people are a far more insidious and widespread problem than the nebulous evils they claim to be rooting out.

I was just out doing some shopping and I saw several middle aged and older men in the company of children. I would assume that they were either sons, daughters or grandchildren, and I suspect most people would assume the same. However, when people arrive on foreign shores many seem to automatically assume the worst. I've read a number of travel stories in which, at least in the mind of the author, being seen in the company of a child is sufficient evidence to indicate pedophilia. Again, no problem if they keep their sick thoughts to themselves, but how many do?

I once read an old travel story in which the author met Paul Gaugin in Tahiti. Apparently the old fellow was in the habit of having lunch in a cafe every day with his teenage granddaughters. He evidently had become accustomed to the hateful glares and constant harrassment from strangers that his situation attracted, but the author had not. That was decades ago and the hatemongers have been breeding like rabbits since then.

With regard to teacher/student relationships and the 'abuse of authority' issue, I agree that it's inapropriate in high school situations where there are actually some authority issues involved, but in the usual language school environment it's irrelevent. How does the situation differ from that of a scuba/skiing/whatever course? Does anyone think that scuba or ski instructors are evil perverts if they strike up a relationship with a student? And should a 'Director Of Ski instruction' (lol) take it upon him or herself to intervene, since his esteemed position is so heavily invested with authority and responsibility? The very idea cracks me up

It seems to me that a lot of people take themselves far too seriously. In the absence of anything remotely resembling a 'life', and on the slimmest of pretexts they set about to exercise what little power their menial, low-paid position affords them and attempt to interfere in other people's lives. All under the guise of Doing What's Right. Hypocrites. Anyone that thinks they have 'power' in a language (or scuba/origami/whatever) school is suffering from delusions of grandeur.

Should someone of their ilk direct their inane pettiness toward me I have no problem indicating my disgust and distaste for such people through direct means. Actually, I would enjoy it.

Oh, and I've learned my lesson. Apparently the letter 'v' is evil, and is an unsuitable substitute for the letter 'u'. "E', however is perfectly ok. The word that starts in 'b' and ends in 'tocks' is also vile and pernicious. I would use the words that my six year old niece uses (both start with 'b' and end in 'm') but after being censured (and censored) for using another 'b' word that I've never heard referred to as vulgar, I suspect the Disney police might take umbrage. Perhaps 'gluteus maxima' is acceptable? What is the current politically correct under-fives term for one's posterior? It would seem that body parts and their names are vulgar unless they have been blown off, in which case they qualify as wholesome family entertainment

Good thing the Knights Who Say *beep* are not forum members!

[James_T_Kirk]