Job Discussion Forums

[creztor]

OK, this is more of just a general topic than anything else. I see, myself included, that many believe Taiwan has at the very least become "difficult" to find work in. More job ads are stating that they prefer TEFL certificates, universities require an MA and most just want a PhD, the majority of the work is in the northern half of Taiwan, most work advertised seems to be entry level teaching children and jobs are becoming increasing difficult to land. The end result is that other countries are starting to look more favourable, at least to me. I've posted a thread about work outside of cram schools and didn't get much feedback. This leads me to think that people who do work outside of cram schools don't want to comment or just don't come here, that's fine it is a free world. I posted that thread on a similar site and had similar feedback, or should I say lack of feedback. I am wondering if others think that the grass really is greener on the other side? China seems to be very popular now but unless you are happy to teach children OR work only 12 - 16 hours a week at a university it doesn't seem to be anything more than a temporary fix. Sure, move to China and teach kids for a few more years but you'll either again be faced with a flooded job market (could be a long time since it is China ) or you'll be too old to teach children (at least from the school's point of view). Korea seems like an alternative (higher pay than China AND free housing but longer hours),but again the majority of work is teaching children. The upside is that Korea seems to have easier requirements and much more university work available than Taiwan. Japan I haven't looked at in much detail. Anyway, enough of the rambling. I wonder if instead of jumping ship it might be time to focus on building up your own network/business side of things, whatever that may be. I guess a big part is how long someone plans to be at this ESL game, because someone who was going back home after two years obviously wouldn't be too concerned and could happily follow the green grass around Thoughts?

[vitamins]

I think it comes down to what your purpose is.

With the value of the Yen right now, if you live frugally you can make the most money.

korea can be a pretty sweet deal. With the apartment provided, as well as flight, you're a leg up from the start. Now the apartments aren't very nice, but they're not that bad. Korea also tends to spawn the greatest of feelings. Lots and lots of people hate the country and hate the people. University jobs can be pretty sweet, but they're on the decline in many ways. Hourly you'll make less than taiwan, but because it's a salary you have more of a guaranteed income. I once worked it out with a friend and in Korea you can likely pocket/save about 13,000 NT more than you might be able to in Taiwan during the high tax period.

China's wages are going up, but are still low.

[creztor]

vitamins, it definitely does depend on what you plan on doing. I guess I was looking at it from a long term point of view with the aim of making the most money while one could. I appreciate the post, some good points there. Thanks.

[vitamins]

I should add, that the ESL industry in each country is vastly different. The quality of textbooks in Taiwan and what's expected of you are way higher than they are in Korea. Japan is also relatively professional and high end (AEON etc) than Korea. China is all over the place, from what I;ve been told.

So if you take 'teaching' seriously, that's something to factor in.

[zipper]

[yamahuh]

[creztor]

Thanks, yamahuh. I haven't looked at jobs in South America, will have to just for the heck of it. I'd like to get out of the kids scene and away from the revolving door cram school where looking at the boss wrong means you are let go, still banging my head on this one, however, I do know it means making myself a little more difficult to replace (qualified etc) and focusing on privates/my own thing. Life is like a box of chocolates....

I still do see a lot of jobs in Korea like this...

Working Hours:9:30-6:30pm /9:30-4:30pm(tt)
Working Hours :9-7pm

Some have extremely long hours and the salary is around 60k NT (OK, it does include free housing...). Most of them are either kindy or PS positions. Think I'd snap doing 8 hours of kids a day like that.

[zipper]

[Suburban_Andy]

I spent a year in Korea and the experiences a lot of you are talking about are alien to me. I loved the place for a start and found the people very friendly, even though I was working in a more rural location. It was close enough to Seoul too, which was a bonus.

I worked for an academy called Little Fox which had a very well structured teaching system. It was a perhaps a little too structured as it gave you very little freedom to take the classes in other directions, but it was pretty good. The hours I worked were 1pm-7pm, which was good compared to others, but the worst I heard of was a 9-5 position with a public school. I guess, like any country, it depends on what position you get.

[zipper]

[Rooster_2006]

I think you hit the nail right on the head by saying that China is a "temporary fix" -- in five years, I imagine China will be just as competitive as Taiwan.

I cannot comment on whether Korea is a good fit for you or not, but I will explain why I left Korea after having lived there for five years:

1. No realistic permanent residency unless you either have Korean blood, over 400,000 American dollars, marry a Korean, or take a bullet for President Lee. No permanent residency means being unable to pursue your dreams, constant red tape-related headaches, anxiety about the future and whether you'll continue to get one-year visa renewals, etc. For me, if a country doesn't have PR, that's the biggest deal-breaker in the book.

Oh, but a Korean-American can (and quite often do) just waltz on in and claim instant permanent residency (F-4), no Korean language required! Can you imagine how this pissed me off as a five-year resident of Seoul who graduated from Yonsei University Korean Language Institute and scored Level 5 on the Korean Language Proficiency Test?

2. It is a far more violent, angry, and confrontational country than Taiwan. At least that's the impression I've gotten so far living here in Taiwan. In my moments of culture shock here in Taiwan, I've done and said things that would have gotten me pounded in Korea, no question about it. I was assaulted in Korea three times. In fact, one of my front teeth is still visibly chipped from a brawl that I had in 2008. It is not a particularly safe place to live, despite what Koreans may tell you, and there are some KKK-like groups with membership that is on the rise that seek to harass foreigners, such as the Anti-English Spectrum.
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Personally, if I had an APRC in Taiwan, I'd just stay in Taiwan, but find another job that doesn't involve teaching, because the TEFL market is doomed and I am firmly convinced that it will never recover to any approximation of what it once was.

I mean, come on folks, let's not be in denial here -- falling birthrates, the realization of parents that their kids' English is still awful after attending the classes, a huge influx of teachers due to the Internet, rising interest in learning Asian languages by westerners which contributes to said influx, etc. -- I don't see how things won't just get more competitive as time goes on.

English teaching is doomed everywhere.

Therefore, I can't comment on what you guys should do, but for me, I think it's time to start working on my Bachelor's of Science in IT again, and then pursue some additional computer programming certifications/courses beyond that. A highly-skilled computer programmer can always find work, or if the economy is terrible and he somehow can't find work, can always write software and sell it.

And I refuse to consider a country that doesn't have a PR or dual citizenship scheme.

[Shimokitazawa]

[Rooster_2006]

Thanks, Shimokitazawa, and I agree.

Some people optimistically proclaim that after the recession, the market will "go back to normal" again. I disagree. I think things are actually even worse now than they were in 2009 (when I landed two full-time jobs and one part-time job in Taiwan). The recession deposited many EFL teachers in Asia who will not go home just because of a slight growth in the US economy. Sure, the majority will return when things turn around, but the EFL market in Asia is so small, only one significant recession was needed to fill it for a long time. Furthermore, those who return home will tell their friends, and the word will spread faster than before. There are 150,000 jobs in China (at most), 20,000 in Korea, and I'm going to guess around 5,000 in Taiwan. This is an extremely small sector, folks, and quite frankly it's amazing that it's gone unfilled until now. If 1 in 1,500 Americans went overseas to teach, it would probably fill every single English teaching job in all of East Asia. This sector seems extremely precarious and vulnerable to me -- and it's shrinking, to boot!

Therefore, I'm going to ride the English teaching wave while it still exists, but hurry up and get qualified in a specialized skill -- one in which thousands of Americans can't just suddenly decide "Hey, let's do this! It'll be an adventure!"

I want to be prepared for the next recession. I want to weather it the way my parents and grandparents have weathered this one -- thinking "oh, that's too bad," but not actually being personally affected by it thanks to secure jobs and a huge pool of savings. Much like being indoors during a hurricane and thinking "wow, it must suck to be that guy walking around outside getting drenched right now."

This recession has been hell for me both because of my strangled income and the instability and expense that comes with being an unemployed/underemployed foreigner overseas. Unemployed/underemployed Americans are only fighting a war on one front; I'm fighting a war on two fronts.

I think the solution to this is to do the following:

1. Find a country in Asia that gives long-term, secure visas to foreigners, so that I don't have to worry so much about being unemployed and having to leave. I think Japan is the perfect candidate. They give three-year work visas, which will soon be upgraded to five-year work visas. Although Taiwan's system is fine once you get an APRC, it's the five years leading up to that that can be pretty hairy. I can't imagine surviving for five consecutive years in Taiwan's EFL market without having to go abroad once and break my continuity. It'd be like playing ping pong and hitting the ball 100 consecutive times without a miss.

2. Get a very specialized skill so that I can't just be replaced by the next white guy who gets off the plane. I'm thinking of going for a degree in IT or Computer Software. The great thing about a degree in IT or Computer Software is that you can write code and sell it over the Internet, meaning that even an officially unemployed programmer can still make enough money to pay the bills.

Yep, this recession has taught me some important lessons. I just hope the EFL market survives long enough for me to get my IT qualifications, get out of my dangerous financial situation, and start this new life that I have planned...

[creztor]

Rooster_2006, what you said is right, however, the problem with most Asian countries is that there isn't much work beyond English. This doesn't mean it's not impossible, but it is very difficult to do something not related to English in someway. There are plenty of local Taiwanese programmers who will work for much less than what most foreigners would and this is one reason it makes it hard to get out of the vicious English cycle. I think the best thing to do is setup your own business and perhaps teach on the side until that gets up and running. Like you I will ride this EFL beast for a bit longer, but I know the fun is over and I have to seriously consider something else. I am either considering becoming a certified teacher or raising goats in Mongolia. I hear there is good money in goats...

[JZer]