Job Discussion Forums

[flyingmonkey]

[mark_in_saigon]

The VN are quite friendly and easy to make friends with. You may find yourself inundated with opportunities to do things with them, some of which can be a lot of fun. It is always nice to go places as part of a native group. One thing I notice a lot is that some of the Europeans refuse to speak when they hear an American voice. I do always try to compare notes and be friendly, but some westerners will pretend you do not exist when approached. Others will be delighted to speak. Mileage can really vary on this, I do think making friends with fellow westerners is more problematic than making friends with VN as far as personalities. I think we have a lot of unusual cases here, so you can meet some very nice people, and some not so nice people. You can also meet some very friendly ones with whom you may not really share their agendas or values. You may not find a lot of �regular folks� here, people have to have some reason for being here, so it is not like the guy next door, or it seems to me. Obviously the average westerner in Asia is more educated than the average westerner back home. I also think some of the teachers are by nature nitpickers, whether by training or by nature (or both). I think some are the inspirational type, and some are the point out every error type. If you read thru these threads, you can get a feel for that. Notice how some of the posters will delight in belittling others for no real purpose other than the sheer joy of it. So it is a very mixed bag. I think the female expats are likely more pleasant, but there are less of them. The nitpickers seem not to attack the females nearly as much as they enjoy making thinly veiled insults to the males. I guess it is only natural. You can see that on the threads here as well. The expat party types hang out together a lot. Some of the more serious expats don�t share the need for all that companionship. There are plenty of very interesting people here, I am sure you can find some good friends, be they westerners or VN. Just depends on what you are looking for, and being open about talking to strangers.

[mark_in_saigon]

sorry for the double post, have connectivity issues in my part of town, it does not always show an execution.

[Green Acres]

It has been a constant theme over the past year or so, that the party is over in Vietnam. Most people that I knew 5 years ago have left. I was looking through my phone the other day to get a grasp of just how many people left. This has had a profound impact on the scene as well.

This place used to be easier and more fun. People would be out all night in one way or another and there were many entourage groups in play spanning the scene. During this time, I would not comment as I have about the current scene. Of course, given the vacumn, a new scene is emerging and certainly will, however, it's just not like it was before, and I think this has a lot to do with the visa regulations that have cut out the independent contractor.

That being said, there are some excellent night spots, some old and some new, and there is still a lively scene on the upper crust (which can be a bit pricey for the lowly teacher/traveler). The ebb and flow of any place can change, and the scene is not dead, so there is hope.

The local scene is a bit boring for me. Whenever I go out with my Vietnamese friends, it's usually for a special occassion and involves an open air restuarant, drinks, then karaoke and drinks, and then some more drinks outside with late night food, and sometimes, perhaps some more meyhem. The conversations are never that great, to be honest, and there is always a new guy to the circle who asks me the same 20 questions. In this atmosphere, it is much better to be in a couple, hopefully with no Vietnamese partners, because then you don't have to go through the process alone, and at least someone relates. I know this sounds off, but anyone who has lived here and done that can say that the obligatory birthday party or office get-together cannot be avoided, and usually runs the same, predictable, course. Almost all of my Vietnamese friends prefer to come to my parties or bars and share in that scene -- they like the basic freedoms that we take for granted in our social scenes.

Culture, anywhere, is deep and wide, and one can get lost in a sea of it. If you are working here, then your adventure will not be the same as a traveler or scholar. You will be like anyone else who works in an environment, and your choices will be limited. The point of this discussion isn views so that a picture can be attained. You may hear mostly jaded views because people are always trying to warn others of the pitfalls they may have discovered. As well, the overly rosey picture should be rejected as it may come from a planted source or an apologist. I've worked with and known many female English teachers here and in other countries. I know why they leave this place and this is what I have shared with whoever is reading this. No one is telling someone not to come here, but rather, to be careful, aware, and to have an idea of what to expect. Knowing these things can make ones stay here better. If you were to walk through a mine field, it helps to know where they may be. One should always be thankful of writers who take the time to care.

MOD EDIT

[blateson]

[clayrview]

I agree that you need to be careful of skewed information. However, scouring the internet before I moved to Shanghai (where I am now) It sounded like hell on earth, and one of the most expensive cities on the planet. Yes, like can be hard sometimes, people are rude, expats aren't friendly, but you can make best of anywhere you go once you get the lay of the land.
At least Ho Chi Minh has sunshine!

[mark_in_saigon]

I was thinking of the moment by moment freedoms we have in the west, and comparing it to here. I read something not long ago about a couple of Iranians in the west, they were discussing the subject. One remarked about the freedom to openly discuss the political system without fear of persecution. The other said, "yes, but in Iran we can drive down the freeway in reverse gear". It is true, and it may be more important than we realize. In daily life, they have a type of freedom we never see in the west. I think it takes the place of our freedom to choose between one candidate and another, which is meaningless where I am from, and most other places, as only a dozen states are in play, the rest are gonna be red or blue anyway. So when we go places, we have to be all nervous about our rules, when they get out there, they have an unparalleled freedom, and no one gives them any grief about it. With this many bikes and people crammed into that small of an area and that few highways, western rules of the road are null and void. It is more like a demolition derby, or some kind of video game, but of course no one wants to get hit, so they just barely miss each other constantly. There is not much anger about it, or pushiness, although some of the cars act like jerks, the scooters mostly do not. They are getting more and more cars, and that will crash the system in another year or so, unless they put a ban on new cars or something. The system is close to total overload, and the cars will push it over the edge. The bikes can avoid each other fine, and are quite happy to do it. Really, people spend a lot of time driving, and they have a form of freedom and excitement that is unmatched in our system. We have to follow all these rules, they just have fun out there together and drive as if it is a giant pinball machine or something. It is quite a thrill. You are right next to them, when moving or if sitting at a light, you are close, you can talk, and sometimes do. It was better without helmets, then it felt like a moving party, the helmets create a bit of a barrier between eyes and ears and faces.

[Kimmy]

I have to agree with blateson. Vietnam is a secret society in some form of eerie way. It's a small world in the big fast pace world that some of us experience. Most Vietnamese are oblivious to what's going on in other parts of the world and I can understand why. The many millions of people here that need to deal with poverty and hardship every day of their lives are too consumed by their own circumstances to probably even wonder who styles Paris Hilton's hair or how many children Queen Elizabeth has.

There are many aspects about the Vietnamese culture that reveal secrecy. This manifests itself mainly through the language and the food. It would take too much time to write about it. Although there are negatives about the Vietnamese that make me feel awkward when in their company I am quietly fascinated by this secret society.

[jb0072009]

Well I agree also with many things said here. This is a surprisingly boring city of 7 million people for Asia. As stated most Viets are home by 8PM and most in bed by 10 and up at 6. There is really not much of a night scene because Viets prefer talking to each other in mindless chit chat to say listening to some live music. The women really get off on the latest gossip. As for foreigners place in this society/culture we are just that: foreign. We are never really accepted no matter how long you are here. We are a curiosity and looked on by the government as a neccesary evil. I have been here over a year now and know no more of Viet culture then when I came here and I am married to a Viet! Despite all this it is a fascinating place that is truely unique even if it is impossible to really understand what is happening. The best advice is to go with the flow and do not get paranoid, frustrated or angry because those are real no no's for foreigners in the Viet's eyes.

[Kimmy]

The above post has really wrapped it all up in a nutshell. I think anyone who needs some sort of insight into coping here, then this post should be helpful.

[saigondoc]

This is my first post on this site. I, like most other EFL teachers in Saigon, have no interest in this web site. Why, because we are happy with our jobs and have a very good standard of living.

First, I do not understand the comments concerning the secrecy of the Vietnamese culture. In particular, how it is manifested in the language and food. I have been living in Vietnam(HCMC) for many years and can speak Vietnamese quite well, intermediate level. I would appreciate it if the previous posters could enlighten me and others why this is the case. Please provide evidence.

Second, a previous poster stated that he is married to a Vietnamese and has learned nothing about the Vietnamese culture for over one year. How can a person live in another country for a year and learn nothing about the norms and values of the society. This is nothing but disgraceful. The Vietnamese culture, like all other cultures, is complex. If one wants to learn anything about any topic, it takes effort. One can learn a lot about the Vietnamese by studying the language. One can study the usage of personal pronouns, will take a few hours, and you will learn the most important part of the culture-respect for others.

Third, the comment concerning that the Vietnamese go to bed early is true. However, there are thousands of Viets who are out and about late at night. The clubs, bars etc are packed with Viets. I guess we must be living in different cities or on different planets.

Four, there are issues concerning the concept of freedom of expression
in Vietnam. However, this is a problem in many countries in the world.
However, the Vietnamese are very interested in learning from others and will be more than happy to listen to other points of view. However, one needs to understand the culture to discuss these issues, indirect communication and the loss of face.

Finally, there were many other comments concerning the Vietnamese that
are true but this is the case for a lot of cultures. If one wants to learn about any culture, it is best to understand your own and unfortunately, most people know little or nothing about their own culture.

Wishing all of you a happy and prosperous Year of the Tiger.

[mark_in_saigon]

So much of this is based on your �world view�. On this forum, it is generally better to state your view and not belittle the views of other posters. Even if their views seem ridiculous, they did take the time to write them, and one can learn something about the mindset of the foreigners living here by reading their posts. We are not going to change their outlooks, most likely, but it may help us understand more about them, and why foreigners here are looked upon the ways they are. Plus, you set off an endless cycle of recriminations, followed by administrative closure of an interesting thread.
I find the VN to be very intelligent, highly motivated people, with good morals (generally). Of course they are not all the same, but I actually enjoy being around them more than my own people (again, generally speaking). Of course I am lost half the time, the language is foreign to me. But mostly, I have a loads of fun here. I am from an older generation, so my world view is different from others. One poster gave an example of preferring live music to chit chat. I am sure lots of young people feel that way. To me, music is a form of communication (or an attempt at it), personally, I find it more stimulating to engage in conversation with others, to share our own thoughts that we each develop, than to be force fed the minimal lines that one catches in music. How many thoughts do we catch reading, versus talking, versus listening to music? To me, listening to good music is usually a solitary experience that should not be interrupted by other stimuli (like cigarette smoke and fuzzy brains and scooter noise). But the point is, while some of us may find one answer to be true, others will find another. Not every foreigner here has the same agenda, or education, or goal, or ability to interact with the VN, or financial profile, or world view, or gender, (the original thought of this thread). Each of us sees it a little differently (or quite a lot). Now if we could just teach these folks how to make normal coffee I think I could die happy.

[Kimmy]

Oh dear, now I'm being questioned about my opinion. Vietnam is a secret society and if evidence about this is required then it will all be revealed in a book when it is published.
I hope this thread will remain open because it seems to be allowing some educators to contribute in many positve ways. Those who choose to attack others create nothing but disappointment. Please be kind. There are many foreigners seeking answers to the problems that they face in Vietnam.
I have been here for on a temporary basis for the past seven years. Vietnam has toughened me up over this period of time. Foreign women have more hurdles to overcome compared to foreign men. If one is very feminine, then it's more difficult to adjust to living here. It is my understanding that many educational facilities prefer to employ foreign female teachers but unfortunately Vietnam is not attracting them.
I am not heartless. I do feel for the impoverished and suffering. My colleagues and I contribute in many ways to charity funds and help if we are able to help. Yes, it's true , I could just go back to my homeland and live extemely comfortably in an unknown quiet desperation. However, I am here simply because I am here.
Read the first paragraph a few times from the above post by mark in saigon This will keep us all on track and in harmony with each other.

[saigondoc]

It is always interesting to hear opinions from foreigners living in Vietnam.
However, opinions have no meaning unless they are supported by facts or at least a reason why one has a certain opinion.

It is extremely misleading and in fact a fabrication that Vietnam is a secret society. And I believe the reply that we have to wait for a book to be published reveals the truth. In addition, I do not think it is positive to try to mislead teachers about the Vietnamese culture.

This is not about who is right or wrong. As I understand it, this forum is about trying to educate others about teaching and living in Vietnam. Therefore, if someone says that a certain society is secret and that this is based on its language and food, most people would think this is an odd statement. I have never read or heard this comment about any society.

Looking forward to reading the book!

I agree that one can read posts on this site and obtain some knowledge
about the mindset of some foreigners living and teaching in Vietnam. Therefore, one can conclude that a majority of foreigners living in Vietnam put little or no effort into understanding its culture. How can one be successful in another culture if one knows little or nothing about it?
Generally speaking, they will be unsuccessful.

I also hope that this thread remains open because there are so many negative posts about Vietnam on this site.

If any teachers are interested in teaching in Vietnam, may I suggest you spend as much time and effort in learning about the Vietnamese. You will be much more successful and it will be help you assimilate into the society.

I have also spent time writing a few posts and will be more than happy to answer any questions concerning teaching and living in Vietnam.

Cheers

[Green Acres]