Job Discussion Forums

[inky]

Stay strong, saigondoc. It's nice to read comments from someone with a positive outlook. You have to understand that it's okay to bash Vietnam with opinions disguised in the language of factual statements, with no specifics, but if you dare to disagree with this negativity you are asked to provide proof of each assertion or you're dismissed with rudeness.

MOD EDIT

[blateson]

This is all cool, no problems, but it looks to me like one or two users feel everything should be debated, while most others are simply writing about life as they see it on a daily basis, not worry much about who may be offended, not have any intentions, but just let the truth fall where it may. They aren't writing with interests in mind, but are just describing what they see and how they feel.

I don't have a lot of time but I'll try to make a few responses.

"I do not understand the comments concerning the secrecy of the Vietnamese culture."

Can't get too much into it, so we'll just have to disagree, but intentional secrecy is a reality regarding the way Vietnamese do business. They intentionally keep you outside of the "know", they habitually lie in order to make things seem glossy and well. I've even seen lies even when a lie wasn't necessary. This is true whether in a shop, a school, or in your very own home. In Vietnam you'll learn to think and watch every little thing. You'll also be left with unanswered questions.

"How can a person live in another country for a year and learn nothing about the norms and values of the society. This is nothing but disgraceful."

An interesting point to make is that Vietnamese culture, and rules, is what a Vietnamese person decides to say it is right on the spot. There aren't a lot of guarantees. Sometimes even the norms and values are turned upside down on their heads, if and when a local wishes to. Norms and values in Vietnam can at times have absolute rigid forms, and at other times, when it is convenient, be completely disregarded. The point is, Vietnam is whatever it is right at that moment. To criticize a foreigner for not playing along with that isn't called for.

".. the comment concerning that the Vietnamese go to bed early is true. However, there are thousands of Viets who are out and about late at night. "

In general, any female that stays out past 8 or 9pm is considered pushing the envelope of respect and is at risk of suffering a lot of local gossip. This would be magnified if a foreign male is in the picture. Unlike pretty much any other culture I've seen, parents and daughters have an unbreakable bond. Viets who stay out until the late hours are either doing so because they are doing tasks and errands and are therefore "cleared", or they are with other family members or a group of colleagues that stick together. If not, the first rule applies.

"However, the Vietnamese are very interested in learning from others and will be more than happy to listen to other points of view."

I respectfully disagree, and very much so. The Vietnamese have a very thin opening when they listen to descriptions of life and ways of thinking of other cultures. I learned to never bother to explain to Vietnamese why Americans have certain ceremonies, or quirks, to explain why we may have guns in the home, or dating, or sexual relations before marriage, and so on. By trying to explain these things I found that I was targeted for judgement by the very local people I was trying to establish an intellectual bridge with. In all of those situations, the relations failed and there was a falling out. That they couldn't comprehend what I was saying isn't so bad, but holding what I said or described to them against me was and is wrong.

In reverse, I found the Vietnamese to be very difficult and even frustrating to have them explain why they do some things in their culture. To get any deeper knowledge or inside information from them was futile. The jist of their explanations was to keep their answers as simple as possible, amounting to "because it is so," and the expectation that I would follow and agree with them with no further explanation.

The fact that sgdoc says he is happy in Vietnam, makes me happy for him.

I have noticed, however, that there are some foreigners in Vietnam that simply accept everything without question. I've witnessed some get blatantly ripped off, or deceived in a social situation to the point that it was very obvious the local person/people were disrespecting him or her, yet he or she simply walked away with a 'lovely' smile on the face. It's concerning that some do not think with the light bulb on.

Before I forget, to the user clayview, yes, Saigon is either warm, or hot, all year around.

[Kimmy]

I will just tell it like it is. This isn't a "me and them" situation. Just simple observations and experiences that I have had throughout the years. However, as a foreigner, the chance of having a genuine, open friendship with a local is most unlikely.

We are tackled skillfully by the Vietnamese. In front of you, they'll call you Mr.Tom, but when they make reference to you amongst themselves, in Vietnamese, you are the fat, short guy with hairy arms. And in my case it's Ms. Doris, but I have overheard on a number of occassions as being referred to as the old lady with freckles. In general, I don't think that they like foreigners. It is a habit of theirs to give a foreigner a nickname (disceetly of course). This proves to me that they pretend to like us. I know a few Vietnamese families in my homeland. They have an insulting nickname for each in-law in their family. It's obvious to me that they detest them immensely. So, don't post to defend this common habit of theirs. This is normal behaviour for the Vietnamese. In my view, they tend to be immature.

I have witnessed situations where sweet words of broken English are showered upon the foreigner, then once the foreigner moves on, the chilling comments begin. We are probably just looked upon as providers of education or finance.
Of course there are decent Vietnamese people out there. There are great places to teach at too. One can be very successful here if the ability to stay focused is mastered. Too many good teachers have left here feeling disappointed by their experiences.

Do they really listen to or hear us? I don't think so. I sometimes wonder if the majority of my students have ADD. I'm serious.

The Vietnamese visually dissect us. They watch every move we make and by doing this they fail to hear us. That's why I prefer to use visual tools for teaching in class. This method has been successful for me.

As I said, I will tell it like it is. I don't need to exaggerate or pretend that all is rosey over here because it's not. The Vietnamese need to function through lying and being pretentious. I am not judging them or ridiculing them. It's all in the name of survival.

[Mr. Kalgukshi]

You are welcome to post your opinions here as long as they are within the ToS, board policies and directives. You are not welcome to take shots at other members simply for expressing views contrary to yours. Agree to disagree and move on or sanctions will be going out to those members who are more concerned about personal agendas than exchanging information.

Please bring postings not in line with the above to the attention of the Mod Team by Report Post or PM as soon as possible.

[mickeyrex]

^ Tough read. You've had a horrible time andI'm taken well-aback. I did not have anything like that in my 2 plus there(almost a year back in LOS ). Other than the thievery bit, I did okay. I''m curious to hear what my former students (FB) have to say about this.

[mark_in_saigon]

IF THIS GETS POSTED TWICE, APOLOGIES, I AM HAVING A HARD TIME GETTING MY POST TO TAKE,

It is my opinion (HA!) that opinions do not have to be supported by facts. Everyone can have a different opinion, and often times differing opinions on a single subject may all have a reasonable basis. There can be more than one good way to solve a problem. The main point is to try to post helpful information, try to do it in a courteous way, and try not to attack others. We are here to help each other. If we take our thread and use it to disparage each other, then I think we are on the site for the wrong reason. If we are not trying to be courteous to ALL the differing opinions, then perhaps we should use our free time for other pursuits.

I will always remember how I first felt driving here. When people would haul ass by me and zoom in front of me, I was first struck by the urge to speed up and not let them pass me like that, a la western driving. Then, I understood how I had the same right to haul ass like that and no one would feel the urge to try to cut me off, again in the western manner. We all have the right to drive slow or fast or crazy or sane, and no one really gives a big flock. You are accepted, you are part of the group. If you want to pull wheelstands, they will look at you and say �whaaaaaaaa�, if you kill yourself doing it, you will likely get a similar response.

I am always interested in any honest opinions. I do not always agree, but I often learn something, even if it was not the lesson that the person had in mind. Still, perhaps I learned something about the person, what his/her world view is, and how it came to be, and why he/she is here. It is always interesting to me, as long as we keep it civil. The opinions of this group are not all going to be the same. Some may have more value for the majority than others. But even the ones with the faultiest logic, the worst that we should say is �whaaaaaa�. Or do they say it �waaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh�? Yes, I think that is it.

This particular thread started about why there are so few female teachers in VN. MOD EDIT Now the thread has morphed quite a lot, as is very natural, as the answers can be so varied and can create other interesting thoughts. One of my main thoughts on the subject related to how it is for a man, as compared to a woman, and the main difference that matters to many of us, if not most of us. Of course that is the very touchy subject of fraternization with the natives, uhhh, in the biblical sense, ya know? It is my feeling that if one has a very satisfying situation, that really changes the whole game. Of course it makes many people look at you (and her) and speculate as to what is up . Nice girl? Bad girl? Husband and wife? Whatever. Me too, I always love to see westerners with the natives and speculate. It is only natural. Anyway, I feel that if one is in a very good relationship with a wonderful person, then all that speculation, gossip, interest, staring, along with all these other questions we have, secret society, calling of names, minimal night life, whatever, all that stuff means almost nothing to me. I hate the pollution, the noise, the garbage, the traffic, the sidewalks, lots of stuff, but at the end of the day, I am holding perfection in my arms, beyond anything I could dream of in any other life. So if some embittered person finds a novel way to put me down, more power to him. I can only hope someday his happiness comes close to the level I have found. If the foreign ladies in VN can find this kind of happiness, I am very happy for them. I just think the nature of the playing field is very different for them (especially in this one regard, this reward in life, not the teaching part). Having that makes all the bad parts bearable, add it all up, to me, it is heaven. Not having that would make this life (here) not really worth the effort.

[mickeyrex]

^sorry but that was a bit Way over the top and not helpful and even a bit scary. Of course, that's just my opinion.

[jb0072009]

"Second, a previous poster stated that he is married to a Vietnamese and has learned nothing about the Vietnamese culture for over one year. How can a person live in another country for a year and learn nothing about the norms and values of the society. This is nothing but disgraceful. The Vietnamese culture, like all other cultures, is complex. If one wants to learn anything about any topic, it takes effort. One can learn a lot about the Vietnamese by studying the language. One can study the usage of personal pronouns, will take a few hours, and you will learn the most important part of the culture-respect for others."

I posted that about the culture. I find it offensive that you call it disgraceful. It is very very true that if you speak good vietnamese you will understand their culture better. But I stand by my comment that to learn this culture is very difficult no matter how hard you try and I have tried very hard. The problem is that they (most not all) make no effort in helping you. And yes I know Vietnamese pronouns ong, em, ahn, co, chi, gai

[Kimmy]

I found the comment about jb0072009's honest revelation regarding his/her personal view, uncalled for. MOD EDIT. There are many curious people out there who want to know how expatriats are coping in Vietnam.

Foreigners experience everyday life here differently. Each individuals experiences are not the same. It would be hypocritical to paint a pretty picture about Vietnam just to avoid offending others. There is a lot of beauty to be discovered throughout the country, but one can't ignore the negatives that tend to lurk here and there.
Female teachers are scarce here, and it is obvious why. I am here for a specific purpose and this continually helps to keep me focused.

[Green Acres]

It is becoming clear to me that this venue entertains the attention of a troll. Perhaps a government agent even, but clearly someone interested in promoting Vietnamese superioirity in all affairs while providing apologies for all short-comings. This person is doing no one a service, and his remarks show a clear anti-foreign prejudice. It is useful in that there are many "controllers" here in Vietnam who progress the same type of reasoning and justification for their thinking.

[blateson]

I too have noticed that the people of Vietnam have a controlling way about them over what is said about their country. They don't want any bad points discussed or even hinted at. You'll also notice that some foreigners get in on the act and follow along. A real concern to be aware of for those looking for quality information about the country.

Good points up above, Kimmy, on some of the real-life feelings of being in an esl classroom on many occasions. Many of the things you said mirror my experiences, as well as witnessing it with other teachers too. Lots of good writeups in this thread, not from one but several users.

[inky]

I'm continually surprised by the criticisms and jokes my students make about their government and their country in general. Maybe the difference between the Vietnamese and westerners is that the Vietnamese do it with a smile or a laugh, whereas many westerners are devoid of a sense of humor. The ability to laugh at yourself is probably the single biggest single survival tool a foreigner can have here.

Students make comments about their teachers, especially about their physical appearance. Wow. What a shock. This doesn't happen anywhere else in the world, only in Vietnam. As foreigners, we stick out like a black guy at a Tea Party meeting. Of course the Vietnamese are going to notice that our physical characteristics are different. And in a society where people always comment on others' appearance, they will naturally do it with us. So what? Are you fat? They will damn well comment on it. So have a laugh, you are lucky to be fat. Not so long ago, people starved to death here.

[saigondoc]

I stated that it was disgraceful to live in Vietnam for over a year and be married to a Vietnamese and not learn anything about the culture. I stand by that statement and will make it again if necessary. Let's be clear, the statement read not learned anything, nothing about Vietnamese people for over a year!! Of course it's not true, one would learn a few concepts about the Vietnamese after a year. Another exaggeration?

here is really not much of a night scene because Viets prefer talking to each other in mindless chit chat to say listening to some live music. The women really get off on the latest gossip. As for foreigners place in this society/culture we are just that: foreign. We are never really accepted no matter how long you are here. We are a curiosity and looked on by the government as a neccesary evil. I have been here over a year now and know no more of Viet culture then when I came here and I am married to a Viet!

Here are 3 replies, why? Is it disgraceful, if it is true?

I found the comment about jb0072009's honest revelation regarding his/her personal view, uncalled for.

I posted that about the culture. I find it offensive that you call it disgraceful.

One writer explains that they are married to a Vietnamese national and don't understand the culture here fully. This is an honest statement from humility, and I don't think judgement is necessary.