Job Discussion Forums

[overhere]

I am a 49 yr old American Man, native speaker. I have several advance degrees (J.D., M.A. ) Several years experience as a corporate trainer and have been volunteering as an ESL instructor.

Can retire at age 55 with a pension. I would like to start a second career as a EFL teacher. My preference is SE Asia. I am willing to obtain a CELTA and even a MA TESOL to be competitive.

The thing that concerns me is the age factor. How much will my age limit my opportunites in Vietnam? Is there an age limit for a working visa? Is there alot of age discrimination in terms of hiring?

I have visited the country before and would love to live there awhile...looking at Vietnam, Thailand and Korea. Trying to avoid China if I can don't think I would enjoy the pollution.

any advice would be appreciated. thank you!

[jb0072009]

Actually there is less age discrimination here then in many other Asian countries. I see many older teachers. The retirement age here is 60 so you will have no problem getting a work permit because of your age.

[blateson]

Honestly speaking, the world of esl is going to be a step down in life for you, judging by your education and experience. If you wanted an escape from the tense profession you are living in then I could understand your rationale of just wanting to 'tinker' in esl for a year and laugh about it later, but I can't understand why you would even be willing to earn yet another masters degree to 'make it' in a field like esl. However, in general I don't think your age of 49 will be much if any problem.

With your certs and degrees, why wouldn't you want to just look for a real, better job in hcmc? Vietnam certainly isn't booming with industry, but it isn't like there aren't any int'l companies. There are some. If you wanted to have an impact on said 3rd world country, to me that would be a much better way. With the level of respect towards foreigners obviously going down, working in esl isn't really about 'making an impact' in as much as it is about filling a void in a classroom.

Keep in mind that just because you spent some time traveling in vn and felt you enjoyed your time, it doesn't mean you got to know the real vietnam. I don't say that addressing you, but say it because I myself, and many others, had to learn that themselves.

One more thing, you might want to consider Bangkok over hcmc. In bkk you'll have access to some near-first world amenities (in some settings, that is), much much more to do in your freetime, all around 'more options.' Neither place is super relaxed, but it is true as a comparison between the two cities.

[inky]

With the exception of a few short-sighted school administrators/owners, you will not have any trouble finding rewarding, satisfying employment as an English teacher in Vietnam. I think there is no better way to contribute to progress here than to mentor and encourage young students who need English skills in order to study overseas or to improve their employment prospects locally, ors to increase their knowledge of western business practices. Since you will be receiving outside income, you have no pressure to accept work in less-than-desirable situations, and will have the freedom to choose a setting which suits your professional aspirations as well as your need to for an acceptable schedule.

You should certainly do the CELTA (or an equivalent course), since it is necessary for your Work Permit.

Teaching English won't be a step down professionally, the professionalism is mostly on you. If you take pride in yourself and in your work, then it will never occur to you that you may have 'stepped down,' and in fact you may feel that you've stepped up. You'll leave the US corporate world and never look back. You obviously have a keen interest in this, as you're already volunteering as a tutor. Some people come to Vietnam wanting to live here for whatever reason, and discover ESL as a way to survive, to support themselves. Some of these people become disenchanted, as the reality of living in a rather harsh environment begins to take its toll, and their work proves to be unsatisfying since they backed into it as a means of survival and never were never really motivated by the intrinsic satisfaction of teaching.

You, on the other hand, are approaching it from a different vantage point. You are choosing to teach because you value education and what it can do for people, and secondarily you have chosen Asia as a place to teach. This is almost a no-lose proposition, because in Vietnam you will meet wonderfully motivated, receptive and inquisitive students (yes, you'll meet the occasional lunk-head as well), and you won't ever find yourself teaching in a second-rate school because you needed the cash.

[saigondoc]

Inky is correct, you won't have any problems finding an EFL position in HCMC. I also recommend taking the CELTA.

In addition, there are also corporate training positions available in HCMC. Most of the positions are part-time and pay about USD 250-400 per day, about 6-7 hours of contact teaching. Courses from negotiation skills to critical thinking skills. Most of my friends are teaching about 6-15 days per month.
I also have a lot of friends teaching part-time in university MBA and BA programmes. They get paid about USD 50 per hour, usually about 3 hours in evening. Also some daytime work.
RMIT employs full-time lecturers, teach about 12 hours per week . Minimum of USD3,700 per month, have a few friends on 4,500-4,800 USD. One generally needs a masters to get these positions.

Also if you have experience in the business world, this will help you to move into teaching ESP courses.


Vietnam is still a good place for teachers. It will depend on what you do or don't bring with you. Learn as much as possible about the Vietnamese and will help you as you integrate into the society. Like all other cultures and countries, it won't be easy, but worth the effort.

Best of Luck

Chuc Mung Nam Moi

[saigondoc]

I forgot to include the major drawback concerning part-time corporate training and teaching MBA/BA students. The biggest problem is a standard timetable: I have to be available 6 days per week in order to get maximum number of hours for corporate training. In 2009 I trained 149 days.

The university courses are different, you generally start a course, either 3-6 hours per week at the beginning of the semester. I start a new contract for the banking university in March, negotiated USD65 per hour, 6 hours per week. I will also start two new courses at RMIT part-time, no benefits, 85USD net per hour-6 hours per week- not bad. I already have 10 days of corp. training in March. My salary in March will be approximately USD 6000 net. I will save about USD4,500. As I stated before, the number of hours per month will change. For example, I only taught 3 days in February. I am busy 10 months out of 12. Most of my friends are also doing quite well.

I hate this secret society! Why are they trying to hide the way they do business. It's just not fair! Vietnam is a terrible place to work, nothing but liars and cheats. Get out why you still can! It's on it's way down.

Anyone posting positive things about Vietnam is a spy etc, where's Orwell when you need him.

[Mr. Kalgukshi]

This thread is about the Age Factor.

Let's get back on topic, please.

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=77552

[celloleslie]

I'd like to get back to the 'topic' with a question for you all: What's your take on an 'older' woman (ie in 50's) trying to find a teaching job once she's in the country? I have ESL certification and lots of teaching experience, (ESL and otherwise) and am considering taking a chance just heading to Vietnam, traveling for a while to get a feel for the place, and then applying for jobs.
Do you think there will be prejudice against a single mom? (no kids attached anymore :) Against someone not in her 20's or 30's? Or will it be my qualifications that really determine my getting hired or not? I'm not set on making LOTS of money; just enough to feel comfortable.
And how assertive should I be? I am friendly and diplomatic; will that suffice?
THANK YOU for your input!

[goblok]

[celloleslie]

Thanks for your encouragement!
Actually it hadn't occurred to me that those responsible for hiring would likely be Westerners; are the ILT 'schools' who post ads for ESL teachers owned by Westerners? Run by them? Interesting....
Another question: Are there opportunities for teaching positions OUTSIDE of Hanoi and Saigon? I know there are several cities that have universities; do they do their hiring on the spot? On-line? Would an older, experienced woman teacher have the same chance for one of those jobs as anyone else applying in person? (as long as the qualifications were good)..

[Oh My God]

celloleslie wrote:

[celloleslie]

I appreciate your feedback! It's important to understand the relationship between salary and considered value. And I'm glad you spoke of undercutting other teachers (certainly not my intention; I just wanted it clear that I'm not moving to Vietnam for the money.) I do very well here, self-employed; but I'm ready for a change and different experiences. Maybe I don't need to make that clear (ie, my need for 'change' despite the decrease in income) to prospective employers...(??)
"marketable appearance"...????!!! What do you mean by this? Actual facial/body features? Or how one looks on paper?
And, how do schools measure a teacher's performance, in general? With test scores? Student evaluations end-of-semester? Parental feedback (in the case of teaching youngsters)? Re-enrollment numbers?
Obviously I have a lot to learn about this new ESL culture! I am used to people knowing my reputation and being willing to pay for my skills; selling myself as a relatively unknown quantity - and not knowing for certain whether I even will want the work - is going to be a new experience.
Why should I begin in Hanoi or Saigon? Are there more institutions hiring there? Are they more accepting of diversity?
I'm open to continuing guidance; thanks y'all,..!

[goblok]

[blateson]

In regards to comments about Vietnam ESL schools, particularly raves or positive statements, take them with a grain of salt. About age, really the way it works is, there will be some schools that won't accept you based on age or some other characteristic, and then there will be another that will never have thought about the fact at all. Basically the way a school operates is based on whatever the less-than-adept office staff got together in their pow-wows and talked about or decided what is good and bad, and believe me there are plenty of less than wonderful office staff in Vietnam ESL. So some schools will set criteria on who they give classes to (i.e. for age), and some others may never have even brought it up or thought about it during the interview.

As for the students, based on comments you see on here, again take it with a grain of salt when you see raves about them. Viet students can be rude and highly unthoughtful. Whipping out cellphones while messaging or even talking, running in and out of the room to "take a call"; coming in to class super late and immediately sitting down next to their buddy or buddyette and rambling on about the day's chit-chat right in the middle of your lesson certainly aren't uncommon. Behind your back comments to office admin can occur and often it will be unfair, based solely on personality or on something about you they picked apart -- could be your shoes, or a slightly nasal accent, or talking too slow or too fast. I've seen teachers lose a class over the most nit-picking stuff. Usually the way that works is there will be one or two "class captains" that will decide in the middle of their gossip that they don't like you, then spread it around. One day you come into class and find that the room has fallen apart and you are out of favor, all mysterious like. Some of your classes will go well, others will be less so.

I disagree with the comments that in Vietnam, Westerners must pay more if they want acceptable quality. We westerners are targeted for huge markups. Don't settle for it. And don't be a cause for inflation. When you go to Vietnam and settle to pay $475 for a small room that should be $175, it really affects the rest of us. When you pay 30,000 for a bowl of pho that locals pay 18,000 for, believe me the locals notice.

[Oh My God]

celloleslie wrote: