Job Discussion Forums

[mark_in_saigon]

We had a very interesting discussion going for a while. MOD EDIT I am always saddened to see such an educated community fail to work together in a constructive way, and instead look for opportunities to find fault with each other over honest opinions. We should be mature enough to understand that we are from disparate backgrounds, and now are in a very foreign environment. If we are intelligent, educated people, even English specialists, it would seem we could work towards a positive way of expressing ourselves, and display the ability to accept the views of others. I bet in 1 minute of driving I have to accept 15 acts of extremely questionable actions from others. Is that an understatement? Probably. I live here, I have to accept this system. I may remark about the process, but the main concept in the process is acceptance of others. I challenge all of you to make that part of your makeup here, in country, and in your occasional dealings with your fellow westerners. We have to fit in, this is their system.

The experience is not simple, although at first glance it may seem so. It is easy to summarize things, especially the difficulties, but then to understand the dynamics of why things are the way they are, and how people cope with these things is always interesting. I am always fascinated by the economy, and trying to understand what really drives it, and if one can even hope to understand it. I am drawn to parallels to western economies as well, when I see how much of the economy is just based on consumption. How much real industrial production is going on, and how much is needed? Clearly a much larger percentage of people are involved in getting rice on the table. Yet, sometimes it seems this may be a good thing. It always looks like half the output of the system is the driving of scooters. At least it is not SUVs. Yet.

I saw something today that I really enjoyed. I love watching people drive by. Two young people were on a scooter, the one driving was a young man, I am not sure about the one on back. The one on back had his (or her) arms completely around the one on front, as he/she was feeding the driver a sandwich as he drove. Amazing. This may just seem funny, or even silly to some of us. To me, it seemed a charming metaphor for life here.

If we can drive here without being p.o.ed by the traffic, it would seem we could discuss our experiences without finding fault with each others opinions, or ways of expressing them. I do not agree with everything I read here, and do not expect anyone else to. I do welcome the chance to learn what each of you have come to believe, and hope you will share your most interesting experiences with your friends here, in a courteous and constructive way.

[saigondoc]

I also believe that we should be as constructive as possible. We also need to remind ourselves that every person has an agenda. Therefore, one reads both honest and dishonest opinions, outright lies and fabrications. This is based on elementary logic and reason.
I disagree that every opinion has the same legitimacy, they do not. In fact, it is my responsibility as an educated and experienced teacher in Vietnam to
try to educate others who may be interested in teaching in Vietnam. I am also fully aware of my own limitations and will respond accordingly. Best of luck to all,

SD

[jb0072009]

Do you honestly believe everyone has an agenda? I doubt that. I for one have no agenda. I am here to make money, teach and help Vietnamese and that is it. Plain and simple. Same as if I was back in the USA. I do make some cultural observations just like I would when I taught in Japan, Guam, The PI and other places. Though some of those cultural customs may seem odd to me, I am the foreigner in their country and really have no right to judge if they are right or wrong, only question it.

[Green Acres]

Nice post mark, I've seen something like that too, and I can't help but feel affection for the manner in which many people live in harmony. It was one of the first things that attracted me to Asia in general. Most Buddhist countries have this energy, imho.

I find that many times, the people that really get under my skin are foreigners. Take this story, for example.

It was a few years ago, and I was with some friends on a street cafe in the back packer area of saigon. The owner of the restaurant gave me a rose that she got from one of the flower sellers on the street. I put it on our table and thought no more of it. This kind of thing happens every night, for the most part.

Anyway, perhaps an hour or two later, a tourist comes to our table and asks us (me), "did you buy that flower?" I replied "no." Then he proceded to take it from the table all the while yelling at us for stealing the flower from one of the flower sellers. He was adamant, and absolutely righteous to his cause. We couldn't stop laughing, which just made him all the more adamant. There was nothing we could do to stop him from losing it, since he wouldn't even believe us or anyone else for that matter.

In the end, these people will come and go. They will make a nuisance of themselves and could spoil the party -- so long as you forget to laugh loud and deeply.

I'm laughing now.

[mark_in_saigon]

Not sure what the makeup of this group is, but I can say, as an American, it is amazing how often other westerners pretend we do not exist, after hearing our American accents. This is after my friendliest smile and greeting. I cannot tell by looking what country they are from, so in case they are "friendlies" I always try. I do find some of them to be friendly, but would expect that all westerners would feel some kind of brotherhood when they see each other over here. Alas, that is not the case. The VN certainly seem to be friendly though, I am not getting much rudeness at all from them.

Does anyone else see less poverty as time is going by, or is it just me? While the lottery tickets come by all the time, I am seeing very little begging (I do stay out of District 1). Actually, the begging in Austin bothered me a lot more than the begging here. In the U.S., they seem a lot more aggressive and even crazed. Here, I have to believe some people really need help. In Austin, seems like all the beggars are substance abusers.

I always enjoy considering the differences and similarities in our systems. I sure hope they don't study our begging processes and import those over.

I think Craigslist is starting to be noticed in VN. It seems that it is primarily geared towards the expats, as it is almost all in English. I wonder if the prices on it are inflated in our honor? It may also carry a higher quality of product as well.

I will be going back for a couple of months to do some administrative things. I am still quite happy over here, although I do think the north is a better place to live, in some ways. I got a freaking sunburn in February down here, have to wear those arm coverings like the natives. Ha Noi was lovely last year about this time. Rent is fine, food is still inexpensive, not much to complain about here in Tan Binh. Not many foreigners floating around here, but lots in 1. I try to stay out of 1 because of the hustle they put on us there. Much more natural everywhere else, it seems.

[jb0072009]

I agree. I am also American and have observed the same behavior. The Aussies tend to stick with Aussies and Brits with Brits. Seems very strange to me as we all share the commonality of English. Oh well I do not spend any time thinking about that or the 100's of other odd things that go on here in Disneyland I just like the ride!
I have used Craigslist here to sell something (a home entertainment center). Surprisingly all my response were from Viets, not foreigners

[mark_in_saigon]

English speakers. I find the Aussies to be friendly, a bit wilder than I am though. Wish I could keep their pace. Brits seem friendly too. It is the non English speakers who pretend I do not exist, judging from what I hear them saying to each other. I can never tell by looking where a person is from, unless he is VN, then I am pretty sure.

You know, the rudest thing I think I find on a daily basis is the auto drivers. They think the volume of their horns gives them the right to push motorbikes out of the way, like they should get 60% of any highway, whatever lane they prefer, even going the wrong way. Of course, everyone goes the wrong way, but the motorbikes are not jerks about it. Perhaps the newness of being somewhat wealthy goes to their heads. In a more mature economy, people tend to not be so crass about wealth, there, it is not a big deal if you have a real car, here, they seem to think it is. Well, I got a classic 1978 honda super cub, it is a big deal to me. I know I am gonna miss it when I have to go back for a while. Hope I will remember not to drive on the sidewalk over there!!

[CThomas]

[mark_in_saigon]

yeah, I saw some street over there where they always park on the sidewalks. I own property just east of downtown, it used to be a real questionable area, but now it is hot property. Got lucky on that one. Notice how they let em park on the sidewalks for the UT football games. We think our system is so proper, but our guys can get pretty stupid too. Over there, it irks me to see that stuff, over here, I see it as a learning experience. I am now using the sidewalks myself from time to time, as my personal "right on red" thingy. "If you don't like the way I drive, I still have not learned how to drive up a tree." Yet.

[mark_in_saigon]

over 50 ads a day for apartments. About time to split it up between HCMC and HN, right now it is all just one country. Notice they have the same problem we have in the states, multiple postings for the same complex, over and over. At least they don't have the click thru credit report scam yet. CL really seems totally for expats here, at least it seems to all be in English. Also screwy how they will mix the dollar amount with VND. VND 1300 means $1300. I guess the format forces that somehow. Anyway, I think CL running here is a positive, esp if the locals start using it, it could smooth out the housing market for us all.