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lazycomputerkids
Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Posts: 360
Location: Tabuk
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 Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| desultude wrote: |
Market forces, yada, yada, yada. I have heard all of that before- probably before you were born, even.
National and international laws are needed to protect workers. A person who is doing the same job as someone else should not be paid less because he or she is brown- or a he or she, or even a he/she for that matter.
The mindset in the US was the same until people fought, and in some cases, died, for equality of treatment. I sure appreciated all of those fine efforts when I went to work on the TransAlaska Pipeline at equal wages with my husband- for doing the same job equally well.
If that makes me a communist, so be it, but I have more respect for my free-market peers than to think them all blindly obedient to the bloody dollar and free market forces at the expense of fairness and equity. |
I'm a thousand years old.*winks
Don't pull ageism on me, Camel
Communists don't pass laws; they set policy by bureau. Communists have difficulty participating in international convention as policy in such settings is "voted" and not "decided".
Your argument lay in the term "protect". No one is going to object to protecting the helpless. But the domains of wage and earning are not the same. Protecting the billions of day-wage earners is a gargantuan task. Protecting a "professional" class of worker in terms of currency amounts is minutia. MINUTIA. How's that yada? There are no "teachers" being held against their will. Sponsor/Contract disputes not-with-standing. |
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desultude
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| lazycomputerkids wrote: |
| desultude wrote: |
Market forces, yada, yada, yada. I have heard all of that before- probably before you were born, even.
National and international laws are needed to protect workers. A person who is doing the same job as someone else should not be paid less because he or she is brown- or a he or she, or even a he/she for that matter.
The mindset in the US was the same until people fought, and in some cases, died, for equality of treatment. I sure appreciated all of those fine efforts when I went to work on the TransAlaska Pipeline at equal wages with my husband- for doing the same job equally well.
If that makes me a communist, so be it, but I have more respect for my free-market peers than to think them all blindly obedient to the bloody dollar and free market forces at the expense of fairness and equity. |
I'm a thousand years old.*winks
Don't pull ageism on me, Camel
Communists don't pass laws; they set policy by bureau. Communists have difficulty participating in international convention as policy in such settings is "voted" and not "decided".
Your argument lay in the term "protect". No one is going to object to protecting the helpless. But the domains of wage and earning are not the same. Protecting the billions of day-wage earners is a gargantuan task. Protecting a "professional" class of worker in terms of currency amounts is minutia. MINUTIA. How's that yada? There are no "teachers" being held against their will. Sponsor/Contract disputes not-with-standing. |
There are admirable many who make protecting the day-wage earners- despite the size of the task.
I don't think we are talking about "currency amounts"- we are talking about contracted wages. Many countries do protect the professional classes and the day wage earners against discrimination base on, at a minimum, skin color and national origin. I suspect we both come from this sort of country.
Are teachers "being held against their will"? Not at gun point, but the prospect to returning to home countries where there are wars waging, incredible poverty, and political brutality is enough to keep people working in severely substandard conditions. I knew people that fit each of these cases when I was in Saudia.
Don't accuse me of ageism, by the way- you are the one who calls yourself "kid"! |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| A person who is doing the same job as someone else should not be paid less because he or she is brown- or a he or she, or even a he/she for that matter. |
I think I pointed this out before, but Saudi employers do not (officially) discriminate on the basis of skin colour, but (sometimes) on passport, which is not the same thing. Thus, in places which do have pay scales based on nationality, a black American will get paid more than a white South African, for example. I also asked for a list of those places which have differing pay scales for men or women, as this has not been the case with any of the employers I've worked for.
Now, it is of course true that some places will unofficially discriminate on the basis of race or gender, but are you honestly going to tell us such things don't happen elsewhere? Now, I know you are going to say something about how 'we have laws to deal with this' (believe it or not, so do the Saudis) but how easy are these laws to enforce in practice? Not very easy, I'd imagine, especially if one is a foreigner, despite the occasional high-profile case we hear of in the media. And needless to say, these laws don't cover the huge underground labour market where foreign (yes, usally 'dark skinned') workers are massively exploited - in my country and, I'm guessing, in your country too.
| Quote: |
| Not at gun point, but the prospect to returning to home countries where there are wars waging, incredible poverty, and political brutality is enough to keep people working in severely substandard conditions. |
These people sound more like candidates for refugee status than economic migrants. |
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desultude
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Cleopatra wrote: |
| Quote: |
| A person who is doing the same job as someone else should not be paid less because he or she is brown- or a he or she, or even a he/she for that matter. |
I think I pointed this out before, but Saudi employers do not (officially) discriminate on the basis of skin colour, but (sometimes) on passport, which is not the same thing. Thus, in places which do have pay scales based on nationality, a black American will get paid more than a white South African, for example. I also asked for a list of those places which have differing pay scales for men or women, as this has not been the case with any of the employers I've worked for.
Now, it is of course true that some places will unofficially discriminate on the basis of race or gender, but are you honestly going to tell us such things don't happen elsewhere? Now, I know you are going to say something about how 'we have laws to deal with this' (believe it or not, so do the Saudis) but how easy are these laws to enforce in practice? Not very easy, I'd imagine, especially if one is a foreigner, despite the occasional high-profile case we hear of in the media. And needless to say, these laws don't cover the huge underground labour market where foreign (yes, usally 'dark skinned') workers are massively exploited - in my country and, I'm guessing, in your country too.
| Quote: |
| Not at gun point, but the prospect to returning to home countries where there are wars waging, incredible poverty, and political brutality is enough to keep people working in severely substandard conditions. |
These people sound more like candidates for refugee status than economic migrants. |
Yes, well, one gentleman I can think of was not about to get refugee status to protect him from having to return to Iraq, where he faced a dubious future in terms of his own personal safety. There are a lot of Iraqi, and Pakistani, faculty who are not in a position to return home due to politics and war. I was responding to the argument made by the "kids' that if someone doesn't like his inferior wages, he or she can just return home.
And, then I have to assume, since such laws are hard to get created and harder still to get enforced, we should not have equality in the workplace as a value? Just go with market forces and be happy with our white skin and U.S passports and collect our good wages and ignore the inequities around us? This is surely a winning formula for surviving happily and cheerfully. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes, well, one gentleman I can think of was not about to get refugee status to protect him from having to return to Iraq, where he faced a dubious future in terms of his own personal safety. |
OK so you base your case on one Iraqi?
Maybe America would take him in? They have taken in a vanishingly small number of Iraqi refugees despite the fact that, to put it mildly, America had some role to play in the whole thing.
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| I was responding to the argument made by the "kids' that if someone doesn't like his inferior wages, he or she can just return home. |
Actually, the vast majority of them can. Most teachers working in KSA (not neccessarily labourers, but they are not the subject of this thread) are not threatened by warfare in their home countries. A few are, of course, but the vast majority are in KSA for the same reason as everyone else - they can save a lot more money there than they could back home.
| Quote: |
| And, then I have to assume, since such laws are hard to get created and harder still to get enforced, we should not have equality in the workplace as a value? Just go with market forces and be happy with our white skin and U.S passports and collect our good wages and ignore the inequities around us? This is surely a winning formula for surviving happily and cheerfully. |
Enough of the strawmen and 'perfect world' arguments! Did you demand to be paid the same as an Indian (assuming your employers had a nationality based payscale)? We're teachers, not trade union officials. I don't 'ignore the inequities' around me - I'm well aware that KSA is a very racist and discriminatory place - but what, precisely, do you expect me to do about it? Do you go about your daily life in Oman feeling troubled at all the racism and discrimination there (and please don't tell us it doesn't exist)? When you're in the US, do you not continually feel depressed at how the world's richest nation still can't provide vulnerable people with a comprehensive health care system? Were you beating yourself up for visiting Dubai for TESOL Arabia, knowing as you must that the Emirate is notorious - even by the standards of the Gulf - for its abuse of migrant labourers? |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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Desultude
I will suggest something. Give all your possessions away. Renounce your US citizenship,. Go and live in an Ashram.
I guarantee you will not meet any Saudis, Omanis, Emiratis or Qataris there ! |
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desultude
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Cleopatra wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Yes, well, one gentleman I can think of was not about to get refugee status to protect him from having to return to Iraq, where he faced a dubious future in terms of his own personal safety. |
OK so you base your case on one Iraqi?
Maybe America would take him in? They have taken in a vanishingly small number of Iraqi refugees despite the fact that, to put it mildly, America had some role to play in the whole thing.
| Quote: |
| I was responding to the argument made by the "kids' that if someone doesn't like his inferior wages, he or she can just return home. |
Actually, the vast majority of them can. Most teachers working in KSA (not neccessarily labourers, but they are not the subject of this thread) are not threatened by warfare in their home countries. A few are, of course, but the vast majority are in KSA for the same reason as everyone else - they can save a lot more money there than they could back home.
| Quote: |
| And, then I have to assume, since such laws are hard to get created and harder still to get enforced, we should not have equality in the workplace as a value? Just go with market forces and be happy with our white skin and U.S passports and collect our good wages and ignore the inequities around us? This is surely a winning formula for surviving happily and cheerfully. |
Enough of the strawmen and 'perfect world' arguments! Did you demand to be paid the same as an Indian (assuming your employers had a nationality based payscale)? We're teachers, not trade union officials. I don't 'ignore the inequities' around me - I'm well aware that KSA is a very racist and discriminatory place - but what, precisely, do you expect me to do about it? Do you go about your daily life in Oman feeling troubled at all the racism and discrimination there (and please don't tell us it doesn't exist)? When you're in the US, do you not continually feel depressed at how the world's richest nation still can't provide vulnerable people with a comprehensive health care system? Were you beating yourself up for visiting Dubai for TESOL Arabia, knowing as you must that the Emirate is notorious - even by the standards of the Gulf - for its abuse of migrant labourers? |
I can do little about the inequalities I see in the countries where I work, but, yes, they bother me, and I speak up when it is appropriate or useful.
I have spent a good deal of my adult life as an activist for rights, including the right to decent health care, while living in the US. I have definitely not just stood by and beaten my breast for the woes of the world. Many of us do feel depressed and angry about not being able to deal effectively with the insurance industry controlled US government.
I do not sit idly by pretending that everything is fine, and I don't just relent to the injustices of "market forces", but I do know the limits of what can be done in a foreign land. And, yes, the brutal inequities of Saudi Arabia and the UAE do turn me off enough to not want to work and live there. And, yes, Oman has it problems, but it is markedly different in degree. Part of that difference is few of the average people (including almost all of my students) live the kind of privileged and extravagant lives that the live in Saudi Arabia and the UAE.
Yes, I believe that Oman is much better. I live here and I think that. So I will just leave it at that. There is no point in arguing it. I have lived both places, and I am so much more comfortable with how things are here. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Part of that difference is few of the average people (including almost all of my students) live the kind of privileged and extravagant lives that the live in Saudi Arabia and the UAE. |
Actually, few of the 'average people' in KSA live priviliged and extravagant lives either. KSA is in fact quite a poor country by Western standards, and most Saudis have a fairly low standard of living, not much (if at all) better than their counterparts in Oman.
The type of people who attend expensive private colleges are not representative of their societies as a whole, not in KSA or anywhere else. |
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h-train
Joined: 10 Mar 2007
Posts: 100
Location: 26 miles from Bahrain
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| Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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I don't understand the whole extravagant lives being lived by Saudis part. Is that because lots of homes have a maid? That's pretty much common everywhere, including the poor countries I've lived in like Mexico and China. When I was studying abroad in Mexico, my host mother told me she had a maid before she had a car.
Most of my Saudi students drive modest cars, don't wear any jewelry, and don't ever talk about money or anything I'd consider extravagant. Perhaps I'm blind to it, but I'm not seeing many luxury cars on the road or much opulence in general. I see people getting paid to pick up after Saudis and that's about it. And I will also add that a lot of them are thankful to have the work. |
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lazycomputerkids
Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Posts: 360
Location: Tabuk
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| Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| desultude wrote: |
| There are admirable many who make protecting the day-wage earners- despite the size of the task. |
I failed to convey why I contrasted wage and earning. Protecting wage workers is not a matter to be abandoned for its size, it's the greater priority. Professional earnings are mediated by mechanisms such as contracts. Contracts provide protection from the very regulation you're lobbying. No one is forced into a contract, outside cases of coercion.
| desultude wrote: |
| ...the prospect to returning to home countries where there are wars waging, incredible poverty, and political brutality is enough to keep people working in severely substandard conditions. |
Labor workers, most certainly, not teachers. The 'prospect' is not an employer providing a 'way home', the 'prospect' was leaving in the first place. However, your phrase I've boldfaced invites interpretation. You assert by affix and adverb. You have qualified and little else. Standards "fit" for a teacher? Versus myriad other professions? And just how is that standard established? You fore go such answers to assert equality. That some set wage should be determined, globally. Or perhaps, whatever rate IS established, all should be paid it. You appeal to an authority without existence while proposing market values ignore the injustice you describe.
I don't "ignore" the inequities. I see their justifications. I'm paid what is a competitive wage for the country I'm from. Otherwise, I might never have left. I'm paid for an intimate knowledge of English.
My good fortune to be paid more than someone from a non-English speaking culture conversant in English is not their bad fortune. Lobbying it isn't "fair" is one of two things: ignorance or intellectual deceit. |
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desultude
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| Cleopatra wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Part of that difference is few of the average people (including almost all of my students) live the kind of privileged and extravagant lives that the live in Saudi Arabia and the UAE. |
Actually, few of the 'average people' in KSA live priviliged and extravagant lives either. KSA is in fact quite a poor country by Western standards, and most Saudis have a fairly low standard of living, not much (if at all) better than their counterparts in Oman.
The type of people who attend expensive private colleges are not representative of their societies as a whole, not in KSA or anywhere else. |
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desultude
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| h-train wrote: |
I don't understand the whole extravagant lives being lived by Saudis part. Is that because lots of homes have a maid? That's pretty much common everywhere, including the poor countries I've lived in like Mexico and China. When I was studying abroad in Mexico, my host mother told me she had a maid before she had a car.
Most of my Saudi students drive modest cars, don't wear any jewelry, and don't ever talk about money or anything I'd consider extravagant. Perhaps I'm blind to it, but I'm not seeing many luxury cars on the road or much opulence in general. I see people getting paid to pick up after Saudis and that's about it. And I will also add that a lot of them are thankful to have the work. |
Aren't you teaching military students? I seem to remember that. |
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desultude
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:01 am Post subject: |
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| lazycomputerkids wrote: |
| desultude wrote: |
| There are admirable many who make protecting the day-wage earners- despite the size of the task. |
I failed to convey why I contrasted wage and earning. Protecting wage workers is not a matter to be abandoned for its size, it's the greater priority. Professional earnings are mediated by mechanisms such as contracts. Contracts provide protection from the very regulation you're lobbying. No one is forced into a contract, outside cases of coercion.
| desultude wrote: |
| ...the prospect to returning to home countries where there are wars waging, incredible poverty, and political brutality is enough to keep people working in severely substandard conditions. |
Labor workers, most certainly, not teachers. The 'prospect' is not an employer providing a 'way home', the 'prospect' was leaving in the first place. However, your phrase I've boldfaced invites interpretation. You assert by affix and adverb. You have qualified and little else. Standards "fit" for a teacher? Versus myriad other professions? And just how is that standard established? You fore go such answers to assert equality. That some set wage should be determined, globally. Or perhaps, whatever rate IS established, all should be paid it. You appeal to an authority without existence while proposing market values ignore the injustice you describe.
I don't "ignore" the inequities. I see their justifications. I'm paid what is a competitive wage for the country I'm from. Otherwise, I might never have left. I'm paid for an intimate knowledge of English.
My good fortune to be paid more than someone from a non-English speaking culture conversant in English is not their bad fortune. Lobbying it isn't "fair" is one of two things: ignorance or intellectual deceit. |
I am, in my own clearly inadequate way, asserting that people need to be paid equal pay for equal work. It is a basic, very basic, standard of equity and fairness. And it applies whether the person is a street sweeper or a banker.
Once the non-native speaker steps into the classroom and teaches the same material I teach, she is entitled to the same wage as I make. I claim this for teaching. If one person is publishing, researching, managing, etc., then consideration can be given in terms of wages and benefits. I fail to see why I am worth 10% more than a white Canadian colleague of mine, simply because many years ago I had the fortune to be able to complete an advanced degree. |
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h-train
Joined: 10 Mar 2007
Posts: 100
Location: 26 miles from Bahrain
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| Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| desultude wrote: |
| h-train wrote: |
I don't understand the whole extravagant lives being lived by Saudis part. Is that because lots of homes have a maid? That's pretty much common everywhere, including the poor countries I've lived in like Mexico and China. When I was studying abroad in Mexico, my host mother told me she had a maid before she had a car.
Most of my Saudi students drive modest cars, don't wear any jewelry, and don't ever talk about money or anything I'd consider extravagant. Perhaps I'm blind to it, but I'm not seeing many luxury cars on the road or much opulence in general. I see people getting paid to pick up after Saudis and that's about it. And I will also add that a lot of them are thankful to have the work. |
Aren't you teaching military students? I seem to remember that. |
I teach Aramco apprentices. |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| Aramcon - or one of the hired hands bused in with the cleaners and typists ? |
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