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pacovl46
Joined: 19 Mar 2010
Posts: 6
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 Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: Sine Education is not worth it |
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[quote="TEFLteacherthai"]Regarding the post that everyone charges the teacher for work permits. It amazes me when some tries to post like they are the most rational person in the world and others are overreacting or not understanding the "culture". Then they proceed to make claims such as "all the teachers I contacted love the company" and "most recruiters (schools) charge for work permits". Well here you go. The proof is in the pudding as they say:
From Dave's:
http://www.eslcafe.com/joblist/index.cgi?read=21058
All one year work permits/visa applied and paid for by The Language.
http://www.eslcafe.com/joblist/index.cgi?read=21054
* Work permit and necessary visa
I know I'm repeating myself here, but it's NOT the norm that schools pay for your work permit. And it's NOT the norm that your agent pays for your NON-B visa. The latter being especially true. I mean what do you expect??? Red carpet, trumpet players lined up, champagne and caviar? I'd like to know where you are from and who pays for work permits and visas in your country? I'm from Germany and there you pay most definitely for everything yourself.
By the way, how do you know what the teachers he contacted said to him when he called? I was one of them and I'm certainly happy to work for Sine Education. As Charlie said before, different people different experiences. There's always two sides to a story.
Best regards
Alex
Last edited by pacovl46 on Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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pacovl46
Joined: 19 Mar 2010
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Gypsy King wrote: |
| There are much better recruiters out there in Thailand than Sine Education. The lady who runns the show is typicaly Thai so don't expect to be treated fair when it comes to your pay! |
Up front I'd like to say that the lady who runs the agency is not typically Thai in my opinion.
Have you been working for Sine Education? Assuming you did let me ask you this: What is a fair salary in your opinion?
You knew how much you were gonna get when you signed the contract, didn't you?? So why sign if you think it's unfair. I've been working for two different agents before her, and I'm telling you she does pay fair. At least from my point of view and experience. I've been teaching in Thailand for 6.5 years and I know what the going rates are. So if you had a standard contract with Sine, which I believe to have been the case assuming you've been working for her, then you got what everyone else got in her company. Go and check what other agents pay, and you'll see for yourself.
Last edited by pacovl46 on Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:39 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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pacovl46
Joined: 19 Mar 2010
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Gypsy King wrote: |
| It is not difficult at all to understand the Thai educational system, culture and behavior. You mentioned all you need to do is make the school happy. NO we are not only talking about the students,,,,we mean the Thai teachers and adminstration who when or if they decide they do not like a Farang ESL teacher for any reason....mostly personal (through grudges etc.) have no hesitation in getting rid of him on the spot although he himself may be an excellent teacher, well liked by his students and of course make them HAPPY! This I believe is the major reason why there is a high turnover of QUALIFIED EFL teachers in Thai government and/or private schools TIT:shock: |
I totally agree!!! |
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TEFLteacherthai
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:40 am Post subject: Re: Recruiters and Schools do not charge for the Work Permit |
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| pacovl46 wrote: |
| I know I'm repeating myself here, but it's NOT the norm that schools pay for your work permit. And it's NOT the norm that your agent pays for your NON-B visa. The latter being especially true. |
| pacovl46 wrote: |
| It's true that a lot of schools provide teachers with work permits, but they usually pay less then the schools that don't. |
Actually, you are not only repeating yourself. You are contradicting yourself as well.
I don't think I need to find more examples of job postings where the schools, agencies, etc. state clearly that they pay for work permits. What they do in Germany has no relevance to Thailand given their labor laws or the ESL industry standard.
With regards to pay, I speak on that below.
| pacovl46 wrote: |
| By the way, Marsha certainly doesn't expect you to work for than 20 hours a week because that's the standard contract. So what's with the extracurricular activities you mentioned that you weren't paid for? I'd like to know a bit more about that. |
http://www.eslcafe.com/joblist/index.cgi?read=20975
Aside from the extra curricular activities, tutoring students that are "failing" after school (not a 'class' so not subject to the extra 500 baht per hour), helping to edit/proofread the Thai teachers exams/thesis papers/program material, etc. The 9 hours a day mentioned below is quite full of things asked of you.
Work hours stated in their job ad:
Working hours : The school starts from 7.45 am (or 8:00am) to 4.00 pm.
That is 9 hours or more a day at the school which includes the teaching duties of 20-22 hours a week but what is not mentioned is all the substitute teaching that you will have to do (for Thai teachers or the revolving door of foreign teachers at the schools that realize the reality and the promise are not the same).
All of these duties are during school hours so is not reimbursable at 500 baht per hour. That pay is for the extra weekend/after-school tutoring classes that Sine sells the schools and asks you to cover.
Not to worry though. Since most contracts are only for 9 to 10 months, you get lots of time off. Unpaid.
| pacovl46 wrote: |
Assuming you did let me ask you this: What is a fair salary in your opinion?
...So if you had a standard contract with Sine, which I believe to have been the case assuming you've been working for her, then you got what everyone else got in her company. Go and check what other agents pay, and you'll see for yourself. |
Why not come out and tell us what the standard contract pay rate is? Unlike other agencies and schools, Sine doesn't state starting salaries in their job ads but the standard pay is 30,000 baht if you are a native English speaker (less if you are not) though you could probably negotiate another 1-2,000 baht if you are lucky.
Other schools and agencies are advertising the same pay, if not more, along with the payment of other items such as work permit.
So you are correct, I got what everyone else at Sine got. 
I really can't continue this and will let others make their choices. I have moved on and tried to let go but it was not the best first experience in Thailand to work with Sine.
Thank you and best of luck to you too. |
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pacovl46
Joined: 19 Mar 2010
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:07 am Post subject: Re: Recruiters and Schools do not charge for the Work Permit |
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| TEFLteacherthai wrote: |
| pacovl46 wrote: |
| I know I'm repeating myself here, but it's NOT the norm that schools pay for your work permit. And it's NOT the norm that your agent pays for your NON-B visa. The latter being especially true. |
| pacovl46 wrote: |
| It's true that a lot of schools provide teachers with work permits, but they usually pay less then the schools that don't. |
Actually, you are not only repeating yourself. You are contradicting yourself as well.
I don't think I need to find more examples of job postings where the schools, agencies, etc. state clearly that they pay for work permits. What they do in Germany has no relevance to Thailand given their labor laws or the ESL industry standard.
With regards to pay, I speak on that below.
| pacovl46 wrote: |
| By the way, Marsha certainly doesn't expect you to work for than 20 hours a week because that's the standard contract. So what's with the extracurricular activities you mentioned that you weren't paid for? I'd like to know a bit more about that. |
http://www.eslcafe.com/joblist/index.cgi?read=20975
Aside from the extra curricular activities, tutoring students that are "failing" after school (not a 'class' so not subject to the extra 500 baht per hour), helping to edit/proofread the Thai teachers exams/thesis papers/program material, etc. The 9 hours a day mentioned below is quite full of things asked of you.
Work hours stated in their job ad:
Working hours : The school starts from 7.45 am (or 8:00am) to 4.00 pm.
That is 9 hours or more a day at the school which includes the teaching duties of 20-22 hours a week but what is not mentioned is all the substitute teaching that you will have to do (for Thai teachers or the revolving door of foreign teachers at the schools that realize the reality and the promise are not the same).
All of these duties are during school hours so is not reimbursable at 500 baht per hour. That pay is for the extra weekend/after-school tutoring classes that Sine sells the schools and asks you to cover.
Not to worry though. Since most contracts are only for 9 to 10 months, you get lots of time off. Unpaid.
| pacovl46 wrote: |
Assuming you did let me ask you this: What is a fair salary in your opinion?
...So if you had a standard contract with Sine, which I believe to have been the case assuming you've been working for her, then you got what everyone else got in her company. Go and check what other agents pay, and you'll see for yourself. |
Why not come out and tell us what the standard contract pay rate is? Unlike other agencies and schools, Sine doesn't state starting salaries in their job ads but the standard pay is 30,000 baht if you are a native English speaker (less if you are not) though you could probably negotiate another 1-2,000 baht if you are lucky.
Other schools and agencies are advertising the same pay, if not more, along with the payment of other items such as work permit.
So you are correct, I got what everyone else at Sine got.
I really can't continue this and will let others make their choices. I have moved on and tried to let go but it was not the best first experience in Thailand to work with Sine.
Thank you and best of luck to you too. |
Once again a lot of schools pay for work permits, but it's not the norm. It's correct that you have to be in school from 7:45 to 4. That's actually the norm, and it's also clear that you won't be paid for the time you are not in a classroom, but unlike you I was never asked to do any extracurricular activities, or take care of failing students. I also never had to do any substitute teaching for other teachers, Thais or foreigners. I usually just checked homework or prepared lessons. I also earn more than what you stated, and I'm not a native English speaker. And I earned it right away after I started there. Some schools even pay a bonus on top of the salary for housing. It can go up to 40K minus tax if you got a "good" school. The teachers I know who work for Sine all get the same amount per month. There's some who got a "good" school and they earn 40K minus tax.
As for the holidays, I had an 11 months contract from the very beginning. This means I get paid 11 months in spite of going to work only 8. I found that extremely nice, and I know from my personal experience that that is not the norm. Usually schools pay, as u said, 9 to 10 months if you are lucky, often it's only 8. Marsha saw to it that I'm paid 11 months.
It really seems to me that you got a can of worms here. I'm surprised actually, because I didn't make any of the experiences you mentioned at all.
Anyway, I hope you found another agency or school and are happy there. |
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Charly T
Joined: 09 Mar 2010
Posts: 3
Location: Bangkok
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| Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:21 am Post subject: SES |
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I checked the 10 links:
None pays as SES, some even give you 10.000 Baht less. I rather pay for my WP and receive my full salary you would tell me. Right? LoL!
Anyway, I wanna to give my input as the guy was asking at the start of the post and all I mentionned is based on personal experiences. It is been 3 amazing years working with Marsha, I am leaving Thailand in a week.
I am now suspecting that one of the guys here is Brian I helped to find a job with Marsha and got himself into huge trouble (Drug - Violence...) Were you really expecting support from the company after what she did for you when you got here from the States without any cash? Come on dawg!
You guys have fun and join me for parties before I bounce out!
Charly T
charlytemplar.com |
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MaiPenRai
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 390
Location: BKK
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| Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, but it IS the NORM for schools and/or agencies to pay for your work permit and extension.
It is NOT the norm that schools/agencies offer less salary if they pay for the work permit.
A great school or agency will also pay for your visa and extension.
It is NOT the norm for agencies to pay for visas and extensions.
A good school or agency will pay for accommodations or give an allowance. This is about 50/50 for agencies. Those with secure contracts often have accomm ready. Unsecure contracts usually menas no accomm provided.
8-4 M-F is the norm for government schools. 18-22 teaching hours is the norm. Additional and common teacher admin duties are common at government schools within reason and within school hours. Sometimes teacher have to do things on an occasional weekend or evening. THis is the norm for teachers anywhere in the world.
Short contracts are more common these days (8,9,10,11 months). The best agencies will pay 11 or 12 month contracts but these places also expect the best from teachers as well. Most often these are for English Programs and/or teaching content subjects like math,science, etc. Standard conversation classes contracts are often shorter.
ALSO, I don't think it would be the NORM for a TEACHER to have long hair and facial piercings and tatoos in most primary or secondary schools ANYWHERE in the world, BUT ESPECIALLY in Thailand.
ALL in ALL a good company will take care (fair salary, work permit and/or visa, accomm, 11 or 12 month contracts, accomm, bonus) of the teachers that do a good job for them (by their standards).
Education in THailand is a business and the sooner people realize that, the sooner it will all make sense. |
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Gypsy King
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:55 am Post subject: |
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Education in Thailand is not only a business it is a bureaucracy of Thai educators! TIT  |
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TEFLteacherthai
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:22 am Post subject: Re: SES (Sine Education Services) |
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| Charly T wrote: |
I checked the 10 links:
None pays as SES, some even give you 10.000 Baht less. I rather pay for my WP and receive my full salary you would tell me. Right? LoL!
I am now suspecting that one of the guys here is Brian I helped to find a job with Marsha. |
Charly:
You are correct; they pay less because I just realized those jobs are in Southern Thailand or outside Bangkok, not within Bangkok, which traditionally pays higher salaries. As a rule rural areas, or areas outside Bangkok, always pays less than Bangkok. Teaching math or science should also pay more than teaching English conversation. Maybe I should post a wider range of job offers but I think the point was work permits.
Sorry, I am not Brian and sorry that he was a friend and recommendation from you. I know from experience that it can be a problem when recommending someone that doesn't work out. But thank you for the attempted character assassination. 
| MaiPenRai wrote: |
Sorry, but it IS the NORM for schools and/or agencies to pay for your work permit and extension.
It is NOT the norm that schools/agencies offer less salary if they pay for the work permit.
A great school or agency will also pay for your visa and extension.
It is NOT the norm for agencies to pay for visas and extensions. |
Thank you MaiPen Rai. That was actually my original point. Teachers should consider other options because there are better schools and agencies out there that will pay for work permits (and extensions) but for most, not the original Non-Immigrant B Visa (and extensions if needed). They also offer more pay and better benefits than SES though not all and it depends on your qualifications and experience. I just don�t think SES is a good choice for teachers who are relocating to Thailand and are looking for good support and decent benefits. |
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TEFLteacherthai
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:30 am Post subject: One more parting note |
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I just wanted to add one more parting note because this isn't all about SES. I would take exception to any school, agency or organization who doesn't pay for my work permits.
For those of you still on the fence, please apply with SES but I would also apply with other schools and agencies to really compare what is being offered in terms of support, benefits and pay.
Thanks and best of luck to anyone joining the wonderful world of teaching in Thailand!  |
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seattle
Joined: 13 Feb 2007
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Come and experience it yourself! |
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| Charly T wrote: |
All recruiting agencies will have you to pay for your WP.
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This was your demonstrably inaccurate quote, charles t.
Why not simply admit error rather than parse and dance? |
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Phillippa
Joined: 12 Mar 2010
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:02 am Post subject: |
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Check the grammar of, especially, TEFLteacher. There are so many grammatical errors in the pro-SINE posts it`s ridiculous. I think it`s pretty obvious that Marsha is getting her Thai friends to post in defense of the agency. Who would even spend this much time on a discussion board defending their agency? I`ll be coming with my story as soon as I`m out of this damned cuntry (typo, keeping it).
-Yeah, it`s Meagan Marsha, get ready for those negative comments you fired me over. |
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MaiPenRai
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 390
Location: BKK
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| Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I just don�t think SES is a good choice for teachers who are relocating to Thailand and are looking for good support and decent benefits. |
| Quote: |
| I just wanted to add one more parting note because this isn't all about SES. I would take exception to any school, agency or organization who doesn't pay for my work permits. |
Hate to disagree with you, but this doesn't look like something a Pro-SINE poster would post. Ir also doesn't look like a THai person is writing it. I know THais with Masters in English who dont write this well and with this vocab and phrases.
That being said, many agencies and schools reply to negative posts or questions and try to make themselves look completely great and/or without any fault.
Sorry you had a bad experience Phillipa. Looking forward to your comments on SES as I dont know much about them. Please don't let your bad experience taint your view of the entire country. |
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Mr. Kalgukshi
Mod Team
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 6613
Location: Need to know basis only.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:41 am Post subject: |
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If the use of real names and personal asides continue, the thread will not.
To be followed by sanctions, as appropriate. |
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TEFLteacherthai
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:06 am Post subject: Sine Education Thailand |
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| MaiPenRai wrote: |
| Hate to disagree with you, but this doesn't look like something a Pro-SINE poster would post. Ir also doesn't look like a THai person is writing it. I know THais with Masters in English who dont write this well and with this vocab and phrases. |
MaiPenRai:
Firstly, thanks for the compliment on my writing skill even though I am a native speaker so should have some sort of skill.
I think Phillippa was speaking to me and not about me regarding the grammar of a post but the name of the poster she was referring me to was deleted/erased. She was telling me to check the grammar of the pro-Sine posters so that it can be noted that they are not native English speakers.
You are correct that people shouldn't judge the whole country by one bad experience but, as they say, "one bad apple spoils the bunch" which is why I am concerned for those just arriving in Thailand having SES as their first experience or anyone for that matter. |
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