Job Discussion Forums

[veiledsentiments]

One point for Spiral... hijab is the covering of the head, so if they are wearing a "headscarf" that is hijab. Those of us who have been in the Gulf for ages tend to use "veil" - the English word - when we refer to covering the face. Each country in the Middle East, of course, has various names for the different types of head/hair/face/ coverings.

And a point for Seditious... the Gulf is the place where the research about the students at the front of the class doing better falls flat on its face. The women invariably outperformed the men. With my pre-med students in Kuwait, the male students informed me that women are just much smarter than men. Despite my knowing the absolute factual nature of their comment, I turned it back to them with the idea that perhaps they just do their homework and study harder.

VS

[spiral78]

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I was assuming full-body cover.

Headscarves are pretty ubiquitous here - there are lots of muslim immigrants in this part of the world, and thankfully where we are, there have been no direct problems with their integration, so no unpleasant backlash for our students that we know of. Girls in earlier groups have reported feeling generally safe and happy here, and they really get in a lot of day-trips around the area.

The students we've graduated have a good reputation in the medical faculty - they are seen as generally 'pleasant and hardworking.' Some percentage don't make it every year, but it's a reasonable number.

I guess I was just looking for a bit of a cultural refresher as I'm just returning to the program after a hiatus. We aren't allowed much time here for meetings about any program - this one included, and I'm concerned with being generally in line on all levels, including the affective.

[007]

[spiral78]

No, nothing passed, obviously. As I said before, this little corner's been quite peaceful so far. It's very international anyway, and though the native peoples may harbor prejudices, it's generally not done to air them publically. An incident could obviously spark unpleasantness, but I'll hope for continuing peace - it's in everyone's best interests, obviously

[spiral78]

Actually, it may be that they cannot cover their faces in schools. I haven't heard that the students object to this, though. And they don't outside of school, either - I very often see them around the town together, and they are just in headscarves, the same as at school.

[Seditious]

[spiral78]

Spiral78 (I don't know if this would be something that would fall into your territory)-
There will come a time when these girls reach medical school when they will be asked to remove their hijabs to do practicals. I don't know how your university handles this but it would maybe be something you'd want to start preparing them for.

Hmm, this could be something I can ask around about. Thanks for the tip. I don't know if it's done here or not - or if it would be a problem.

Concerning integration, contrary to the overly hyped media, Muslims are generally law abiding. Were you to compare actual crime statistics from your local police station or government's yearly report, you'll find they are very few crimes attributed to them compared to the population size.

You misunderstood me - I actually am more concerned with the locals being nasty to the visible minorities than any 'muslim' criminality. Crime rates here are low all around, and I frankly can't imagine any of our students doing anything illegal.

Also, I find a well dressed girl in hijab and jilbab to be nothing to scoff at or concerned about. From your comments you appear to view the hijab/jilbab as a negative to be removed (you smiley face when you note it's absence).... hopefully the girls will change your mind.

Not at all - again I must not have been clear (English IS my first language, but looks like I need to brush up!). I think the girls look very nice. My amusement is just at this one girl's calm, cool statement of....whatever it is - it's clearly a statement. I won't try to analyse her motives, but she's clearly a strong character (and a good student) and that's just pleasant to see. I have zero objection to headscarves in any context.

[7atetan]

Spiral78: Having read the whole thread, I am still unclear as to what precisely you are seeking advice about! Still I'll make a few general remarks.

Firstly, Saudi women, particularly those being able to afford studying abroad, are much more streetwise than one would imagine. I teach and otherwise, um, interact with Saudi females outside Saudi Arabia and their behavior ranges from those who continue sporting an abaya, hijab and niqab (an exiguous minority), those who throw off everything and have their bellybutton on display (a more sizable minority), those who dress normally but retain a shayla/hijab of sorts, and those who dress, look and behave like any Western young woman without any outward religious symbols (by far the majority).

I would treat them, men and women, as regular people, without making any special provisions for either sex and certainly without banishing women to the back or any such nonsense. To me, in a mixed classroom, I have no males and females; I have students.

[spiral78]

I would treat them, men and women, as regular people, without making any special provisions for either sex and certainly without banishing women to the back or any such nonsense. To me, in a mixed classroom, I have no males and females; I have students

Exactly what we've always done - you're right, this wasn't what I was looking for here. We're pretty ok on normal classroom procedures, and our views of the students.

As I tried unsuccessfully to say, I was hoping for some different kinds of insights into, for example, how their families at home might look at different aspects of their lives and study here - obviously the students go home on holiday often.

On this point, they have scholarships from the government - these aren't kids whose parents necessarily sent them abroad entirely on their own initiative.

[Sheikh N Bake]

[Sheikh N Bake]

[Seditious]

[spiral78]

Ask them where they see themselves 5 years from now. Not as an essay question but as a direct verbal question.

Ah, thanks. That's along the lines of what I was seeking!!
Will do, and will report, though as they are here for 6 years, I'll go a bit further into the future: perhaps 8 or 10 years.

As my current group are newbies here, I think I'll pose the question as a small-team task, and let each team report. This will prevent any single student from feeling put on the spot in terms of whether his/her goals are different to those of the others.

going to college for many of these girls will be to enhance their marriage prospects. The parents won't take kindly to anyone trying to upset this view (even to the extent of removing them from school). In fact just yesterday, my sister was told by a fellow doctor that she will discourage her daughters from actually practicing medicine (after they complete their degree) and encourage them to be stay at home moms as this was the rightful place for a woman.

Interestingly, we have had a couple of girls here who entirely subscribed to this view themselves - they had zero desire to work hard in any context, let alone study and or work. They flunked out here (and because failure isn't an official option, they ended up studying medicine in Warsaw Poor dears: and they thought the Netherlands were tough to live in!!) In the last bunch, several girls fell pregnant, and are therefore also out of the program (honorably). I'm not sure to what degree that reflected their own wishes - one of them was a top student, but her motivations and true goals weren't obvious, of course.

[svatopluk]

Play a game with them:-

Bin Laden or King Abdullah?

Lamb or pork?

Shia or Sunni?

Mecca or Medina?

Jew or Israeli?

Black bag or scarf?

I found it always broke down barriers.

PS. LOL at the guy OD-ing on Red Bull.

[spiral78]

I got a bigger laugh at Johnslat's response on the bull issue

I reckon your 'game' would raise barriers - not break them down!!

I already have credibility problems with Saudi students, you see. This is a very small city and I frequently see and am seen by the students around town. I have a dog who accompanies me (as is the normal custom here) shopping and to pubs and restaurants. He's very patient in the clothing and shoe stores. Last week as I was trying on a pair of jeans, there was my schnauzer, a bulldog, and a lab all patiently sitting in the changing room area. A couple of our students were also in the store, and quite surprised to see us....

The best laugh I got was when two of my female friends came to visit from Austria, and we all went out (dog in tow, of course) to a local pub. A whole pack of our male Saudi students came by, to see three women and a dog all sitting at a bar drinking wine (dog at least doesn't drink).

Anyway, I won't ask them to change in favor of my cultural ways, nor will I go for theirs - but we can all respect each other all 'round.

So, no challenges to their culture. I won't play along with any to mine, either Fair enough.