Job Discussion Forums

[Capergirl]

While we are on the topic, what say you all about the term "mother tongue"? My students are terminally confused about that one. I've spent many a class explaining the difference between mother language (the language of the motherland) and mother tongue (first language).

[nolefan]

[johnslat]

Dear Capergirl,

[Roger]

Sorry, Capergirl, your definition and terminology - "mother tongue" versus "mother language" - are totally new to me.

[Roger]

In my first post, I referred to the dichotomy of FLUENCY versus PROFICIENCY; sadly, no one has seized on this.
I note that the concept of fluency is held extremely dear by people in Eas Asia who would argue with you that ACCURACY is less important.
Some Chinese do imagine that speaking at 100 kms an hour is "fluency" no matter whether it's a meaningful communication.
That's why they hire "native English speakers", giving these expat experts a unique raison d'etre: the practice of spoken English until fluency is achieved, invariably compromising the quality of English.
I think, if someone does not have proficiency in a given language he or she should not target fluency.
That comes once you have internalised the lingo to such an extent that you can speak it spontaneously.

[Ben Round de Bloc]

Fluency, accuracy, and proficiency seem to be relative and hard to define. If one puts native-like in front of each of these, the meanings become even more foggy to me.

I know native speakers who don't have what I would consider a high level of fluency, accuracy, and/or proficiency. Yet, when I listen to them speak, they sound like the native speakers that they are. By the same token, I know non-native speakers who have exceptionally good fluency, accuracy, and proficiency, but when I hear them speak, they do not sound like native speakers. Several of my coworkers fit into that category.

[khmerhit]

Definitions change with time, as we know. Perhaps we could say a native speaker is someone who speaks the language like a native, original inhabitant of the land.

For instance, my French is quite strong, I can speak it conversationally, and i've been learning it since i was five years old. I'm no native speaker, but give me a few more years immersion and I would be , or nearly.

I think it's that <nearly> part that is preoccupying the original poster. i agre with Capergirl, Shmooj and Johnslat, and even SaraAvalon and Scot47! Everyone on this thread has a point well taken.

I think it is amusing that Aisha was put out by nitpicking of her grammar--
internet or not. This is a language site, after all. Wait till she has to deal with students hooked on grammar!

kh

[fat_chris]

[Ben Round de Bloc]

[johnslat]

With all the discussion about what the term "native speaker" actually means on this thread, I reminded of (perhaps appropriately) this passage from "Alice in Wonderland":

`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument,"' Alice
objected.

`When _I_ use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful
tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor
less.'

`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you CAN make words mean
so many different things.'

`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master -
- that's all.'

Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute
Humpty Dumpty began again. `They've a temper, some of them --
particularly verbs, they're the proudest -- adjectives you can do
anything with, but not verbs -- however, _I_ can manage the whole
of them! Impenetrability! That's what _I_ say!'

`Would you tell me, please,' said Alice `what that means?`

`Now you talk like a reasonable child,' said Humpty Dumpty,
looking very much pleased. `I meant by "impenetrability" that
we've had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well
if you'd mention what you mean to do next, as I suppose you don't
mean to stop here all the rest of your life.'

`That's a great deal to make one word mean,' Alice said in a
thoughtful tone.

`When I make a word do a lot of work like that,' said Humpty
Dumpty, `I always pay it extra.'

`Oh!' said Alice. She was too much puzzled to make any other
remark.

`Ah, you should see `em come round me of a Saturday night,'
Humpty Dumpty went on, wagging his head gravely from side to
side: `for to get their wages, you know.'

(Alice didn't venture to ask what he paid them with; and so you
see I can't tell YOU.)

Regards,
John

P.S. By the way, I'm prejudiced, of course, but I though I was being rather tactful in the way I pointed out the OP's mistake (2nd posting on this thread). However, from the response, I'd venture that it wasn't perceived that way.

[Sara Avalon]

(Sorry for the essay.. I still need to learn the good ol' "brevity is the soul of wit" rule. )

Like nolefan pointed out, you can't generalize something like this because personal experiences are different all around, sometimes some even break the rules. Let me try to make my perspective clearer:

A handful of words does not make a native speaker, especially if you're given more than one language to select vocabulary. As a child (under the age of 6) of both Arabic and English.. I would pick and choose. It all functioned the same way as far as I was concerned: to communicate basic, essential demands to the caregivers (aka. parents).

In my case.. I was born in Kuwait. At the age of 1 we moved to Londong/England. Nothing changed. I still asked "what's for dinner?" in Arabic and yabbered incoherently on in English to talk about my favorite shows on BBC. I still speak "broken-lingo" with my parents when I describe things because I can recognize a word better in one language than the other in mid-sentence! The entire family alternates between languages whenever the need arises.

Now comes kindergarten. THIS is where I think the languages you were born with/exposed to and the language (singular) you will become a native speaker of become clearly distinguishable. Up until formal education, a toddler is a primarily passive observer of their surrounding environment. They only communicate with familiar faces to express their needs and repeat what they've heard. School opens up new relationship ties, mental conditioning, and more demands on language in proper context.

I attended an English/Arabic school. English was the language for all subjects, Arabic was the second language taught in a single class. I studied there until grade 4 (age 10). The family then moved to Canada and I went to a catholic (English, French was a second language) school. I lived there up until last summer. I am now 23 years old.

Based on my own experience.. there's no way I could consider myself a native Arabic speaker or even a Kuwaiti "native". How can I be a native of something I don't even remember or comprehend? A native in name only, perhaps. In my mind, I grew up English with an Arabic familiarity. And to answer the question of a previous poster, the employers I've spoken to here in Kuwait automatically look at my citizenship and education and call me a foreigner whose first language is English. Most were completely blown away with my "Americanization" (considering my name was all they had to judge me on prior) and immediately adjusted to my lack of Arabic comprehension. I'd even venture to say their demeanor changed when they met me and they "looked" at me like I were an American, not a Kuwaiti. Appearances go only so far before identity is revealed. But this is nothing new to me. My entire extended family (uncles and aunts) know me as the "Canadian" and they say this so sadly...

When I was considering becoming a TEFL teacher, I asked one of my Japanese students (whom I was tutoring at the time) if the Japanese school she worked for would consider me a native-English speaker. She looked surprised by my question and blurted out, "OF COURSE! Your English is perfect!" I even pointed to my looks and my name and that still didn't change her opinion.

I "grew" up with English. It "developed" as I developed. Maybe not perfectly, but it's my "native" language. It's the only language I'm comfortable speaking without hesitation. I -think- primarily in English, but the early mix is obvious when there are times Arabic words make more sense or "feel" right over another. I identify with the English, Canadian, and even American lifestyle more than I do this Kuwaiti one.

I'm afraid I can't accept or be constrained by the limiting definitions put forward by posters on this thread. Sorry, but I'm a native of this language whether you guys like it or not.

[johnslat]

Dear Sara,
(Or should I call you Humpty?) Sorry, couldn't resist. I think, though, that the practical question, as far as this field is concerned, is how employers define "native speaker". And that may well not be a uniform definition. Based on my experience in Saudi Arabia (a place you surely wouldn't want to work in, anyway), I very much doubt most, maybe all, employers would consider you to be a native speaker. But heck, I could be wrong about that, especially since I was surprised by what you wrote about Kuwaiti employers. So, I'll be glad to call you a "native speaker". How about the OP, though? Would she/he be one, too?
Regards,
John

[khmerhit]

Hey no worries, Sara, i dont think anyone was trying to put you in a box.
Native speaker is just a handy term, after all. Aishaisha sparked a debate about it. All to the good. I hope she wasnt offended, but as someone said, she'll have to get used to comments, questions criticism and the like.

In any case, Im a native speaker myself, for better or or worse, but Ive met people from Holland whose english was better than mine.

I think you'll find the people on this site are not as unbendingly pedantic or rigid as they might appear! Except for Scot of course....

slackerly yours
khmerhit

[Sara Avalon]

John,

I could rip my hair out in frustration right about now!

If you want to be "land-locked" into a definition of this.. where you're born is the only thing that matters.. even then I'm a native-speaker because I only hold a Canadian passport. As far as my research has shown, that's the only thing that matters to most employers. That and whether or not you've spent 12+ years studying in the "native" language.

If you check the job postings here at Daves.. you'll see this definition constantly pop up now and again. Not all employers follow this rule. But if the 12+ years of study are not defined as K-12 education, then yes, Aishaaish -is- technically a native speaker to some employers.

It all depends on individual criteria. I guess you should ask the employer when applying for a job how they define "native". Even from the posts on this forum, we can tell it's an arbitrary definition. [/i]

[Sara Avalon]