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Question about learning Mandarin
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zipper



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 237
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
JZer wrote:
The meaning of the phrase is that you each have your own different beauties which are many(a thousand). I know that is awkward English.
Indeed! Chinese prose sounds elegant and poetic when it�s literally translated. I am happy to read that both of you are making so much progress in a short time; that is short compared to my standards. Good luck with it, and I truly hope that it will serve your needs now, and to a greater extent with your future social and intimate relationships and careers! Very Happy
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Rooster_2006



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
zipper wrote:
JZer wrote:
"snip" you can use this phrase if your girlfriend and her friend ask who is more beautiful. 你们，各有千處 (sorry I think this is the wrong chu first tone). I forget what character that chu is.

You�re right. We all have good points and lesser points, and it would be nice if people on this dying planet would always appreciate each others� finer points instead of criticizing the short points.

Also, when I Romanize the sound of what you are saying I tend to get a �chiu� type sound; like Chee-o similar to the sound of this character 秋

Well, you braggers sound like you are doing a great job with the Mandarin studies. I am putting an effort into learning Taiwanese for personal and social reasons of course.

At times, I've actually wondered whether I should switch over to learning Taiwanese. Quite frankly, it seems much easier (at least for my having-learned-Korean-already situation) than Mandarin...

Taiwanese pronunciation is MUCH closer to Korean hanja pronunciation than hanja pronunciation is to Mandarin. Sometimes, to amuse Taiwanese people, I read signs using Korean hanja pronunciation. They either remark at how similar it is to Minnanhua, or on more than one occasion, they've asked me how the heck I learned Taiwanese.

Taiwanese is also seldom written, from what I've heard. Most people write in standard Chinese, and Taiwanese has so many orthographies and so many standards, it has basically been fragmented into a spoken-only language. Chinese without the writing -- that's a much easier Chinese indeed!

However, at the end of the day, Taiwanese is only truly useful in Taiwan. Therefore, I think it would be a more prudent investment to learn Putonghua.
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JZer



Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:

However, at the end of the day, Taiwanese is only truly useful in Taiwan. Therefore, I think it would be a more prudent investment to learn Putonghua.


I can only speak from second hand information since I do not speak Taiwanese but I have heard that Taiwanese speakers can mainly understand Fujinhua.
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zipper



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 237
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
JZer wrote:
I can only speak from second hand information since I do not speak Taiwanese but I have heard that Taiwanese speakers can mainly understand Fujinhua.
That's correct, and in some areas in Guangdong province as well.
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Rooster_2006



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
This may all true, but I still think there's no argument as to which is more useful outside of Taiwan.

-----

BTW, I've noticed this phenomenon that I'm going to call the "I'M NOT A MORON!" phenomenon. IANAM phenomenon. I'm wondering if anyone has noticed it besides me...

This phenomenon refers to westerners who have learned one Asian language, but for whatever reason, are now living in a second Asian country that doesn't speak that language.

Trouble is, the locals think that person is an idiot. They look at his lack of ability in the local language and assume that he must be monolingual. They constantly offer him "language-learning advice" and say "you don't know our country's culture." He or she becomes depressed -- he/she HAS learned a language and IS intelligent, but nobody is recognizing him/her as such. Therefore, he or she contracts IANAM phenomenon...

He (or she, I've seen this with women, too) has only one option to prove IANAM -- seek out expats from the previous country he/she was in and show everyone, loud and clear, that he or she isn't a monolingual moron! For example, someone who just moved from Japan to Korea will make all sorts of ridiculous efforts to speak Japanese with elderly people, and will walk into every store and ask "Nihongo ga dekimasu ka?" A characteristic of IANAM phenomenon is that such people will often insist on using the obscure Asian language even when English is available!

I was definitely afflicted by IANAM phenomenon when I first moved to Taiwan. I kept on asking "Ni hui bu hui shuo hanguoyu?" "Ni hui bu hui shuo ribenyu?" all over the place. Then I eventually realized that Taiwan has only about 3,000 Koreans, virtually zero Japanese speakers (old people here can't speak Japanese worth a damn, that's a myth) and gave up doing that and just worked on my Chinese...

However, learning Taiwanese is an open invitation to IANAM phenomenon! Laughing

Has anyone else noticed IANAM phenomenon?
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zipper



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 237
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
In retrospect, it�s conceivable, but not remotely certain within a hubba hubba vortex of vast uncertainties. One�s unforgivable and inexcusable minor peccadilloes could result in a linguistic relapse that occasionally needs to be retrofitted with various samples of berating intermediaries that could, if applied too thickly, torpedo the effort to construe one as "IANAM." Nevertheless, by your definition I suffer miserably from this phenomenon by unwittingly submersing myself in Taiwanese sub-culture attempting to assimilate by learning that appalling language that in one time or another was a crime to speak. Razz Laughing
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JZer



Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
I was definitely afflicted by IANAM phenomenon when I first moved to Taiwan. I kept on asking "Ni hui bu hui shuo hanguoyu?" "Ni hui bu hui shuo ribenyu?" all over the place. Then I eventually realized that Taiwan has only about 3,000 Koreans, virtually zero Japanese speakers (old people here can't speak Japanese worth a damn, that's a myth) and gave up doing that and just worked on my Chinese..


Rooster, I had a Korean language exchange partner for my first two years in Taiwan, from around September 2007 until 2009. I was trying to maintain my Korean but it just became to much trouble. I studied up to Sogang University's book 5 in Korea. I know that is baby stuff compared to you. Rooster, what level to you reach in Korean?
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Rooster_2006



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
zipper wrote:
In retrospect, it�s conceivable, but not remotely certain within a hubba hubba vortex of vast uncertainties. One�s unforgivable and inexcusable minor peccadilloes could result in a linguistic relapse that occasionally needs to be retrofitted with various samples of berating intermediaries that could, if applied too thickly, torpedo the effort to construe one as "IANAM." Nevertheless, by your definition I suffer miserably from this phenomenon by unwittingly submersing myself in Taiwanese sub-culture attempting to assimilate by learning that appalling language that in one time or another was a crime to speak. Razz Laughing
Oh no, learning Taiwanese in Taiwan is not IANAM phenomenon. Please don't misunderstand...

IANAM phenomenon is when you move to a second foreign country and everyone assumes you're monolingual, and you develop a complex to prove them wrong. I used to observe this all the time when I worked at a guesthouse in Korea, with "Japan experts" who suddenly found themselves in Korea, blundering around like the tourists they were. In an effort to say to the world "HEY, I'M NOT STUPID!" they'd try to speak Japanese wherever they went, even though far more people in Korea speak English than Japanese.

It also happened to me when I moved to Taiwan and my Chinese wasn't up to snuff. Once again, the need to say "HEY, I'M NOT STUPID!" and when communication broke down, try to use Japanese rather than English.

For example, if you learn Taiwanese, then move to China and constantly go around to stores asking "Is there anybody here who speaks Minnanhua?" that'd be IANAM.

Learning Taiwan for life inside of Taiwan is not IANAM. It's fairly normal.

What I was saying is that if someone learns Taiwanese, that person will experience IANAM when he/she goes outside of Taiwan, since basically nobody outside of Taiwan speaks Taiwanese.
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