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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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 Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| I think it's a very innovative and helpful thing to do. I also agree with Guy that it's a much smaller market and that's why publishers don't seem to do it. But Guy, you said that in Mexico City, there are quite a few? I'm in Queretaro, and I've seen nothing. |
I can't think of any titles off the top of my head, but have browsed a lot of titles and used a few over the years - though it's been some time since I last did. Some that stood out were published through UNAM, for a place to start.
If you're ever in DF, try the New Option Book Store - conveniently located next door to th American bookstore. |
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TheLongWayHome
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 1016
Location: San Luis Piojosi
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| Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| gregd75 wrote: |
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| I still fail to see how pinpointing incorrect grammar would help students 'see the pattern' - the incorrect one? Enlighten us. |
OK I will enlighten YOU- as I am sure that many, many teachers already use this valuable teaching tool.
Here is an example. When I teach the present continuous I write an example on the board.
'I am teaching the class' (I put a tick/check next to this and say correct. I smile. I say good english. I say excellent)
I then write on the board:
I teaching the class (I put a red cross. I frown I don't smile. I say incorrect. I use thumbs down)
I am teach the class (negative emotions again)
Then I write the structure under the correct model;
subject + be + verb-ing + complement
I write a sentence that is mixed onto the board:
are / English / we / studying
I get a student to come to the board and write the sentence correctly. I ask the others in the class to indicate with thumbs up/thumbs down is this right or wrong.
Finally I get students to write example sentences in their notebooks. (If I'm not convinced that all the students have got it, I pair up Ss)
We feedback the classes by doing a chain repetition activity.
S1 I am speaking
S2 he is speaking and I am sitting
S3 he is speaking, she is sittin and I am wearing jeans etc.
No Spanish. No modeling of incorrect grammar.
Is this enlightening enough? And please don't pull apart this post because you would do the class differently. I am simply commenting how INCORRECT grammar points can help students to pick up and understand the CORRECT grammatical point. |
Sounds like tefl has finally disappeared up its own rear end. You can teach all the grammar you want, however you want to teach it. There's no evidence to suggest that it leads to accurate production/retention of language. It's fine if you want to teach them grammar rules/theory - very little real language teaching is being done here yet this is what is tested. Most teachers fail to see this because they are either a) too wrapped up in useless tefl methodology or b) managed to learn a language themselves this way (counts for 4% of successful language learning). |
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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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| Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| TheLongWayHome wrote: |
| gregd75 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I still fail to see how pinpointing incorrect grammar would help students 'see the pattern' - the incorrect one? Enlighten us. |
OK I will enlighten YOU- as I am sure that many, many teachers already use this valuable teaching tool.
Here is an example. When I teach the present continuous I write an example on the board.
'I am teaching the class' (I put a tick/check next to this and say correct. I smile. I say good english. I say excellent)
I then write on the board:
I teaching the class (I put a red cross. I frown I don't smile. I say incorrect. I use thumbs down)
I am teach the class (negative emotions again)
Then I write the structure under the correct model;
subject + be + verb-ing + complement
I write a sentence that is mixed onto the board:
are / English / we / studying
I get a student to come to the board and write the sentence correctly. I ask the others in the class to indicate with thumbs up/thumbs down is this right or wrong.
Finally I get students to write example sentences in their notebooks. (If I'm not convinced that all the students have got it, I pair up Ss)
We feedback the classes by doing a chain repetition activity.
S1 I am speaking
S2 he is speaking and I am sitting
S3 he is speaking, she is sittin and I am wearing jeans etc.
No Spanish. No modeling of incorrect grammar.
Is this enlightening enough? And please don't pull apart this post because you would do the class differently. I am simply commenting how INCORRECT grammar points can help students to pick up and understand the CORRECT grammatical point. |
Sounds like tefl has finally disappeared up its own rear end. You can teach all the grammar you want, however you want to teach it. There's no evidence to suggest that it leads to accurate production/retention of language. It's fine if you want to teach them grammar rules/theory - very little real language teaching is being done here yet this is what is tested. Most teachers fail to see this because they are either a) too wrapped up in useless tefl methodology or b) managed to learn a language themselves this way (counts for 4% of successful language learning). |
I, and Greg I'm sure, would be interested in learning some of your activities to promote language learning, Graham. |
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mejms
Joined: 04 Jan 2010
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 5:34 pm Post subject: language learning |
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| I, and Greg I'm sure, would be interested in learning some of your activities to promote language learning, Graham. |
I think TLWH's point about introduction vs. retention is valid and real. It's one thing to present the material and have the students practice it a few days. It's another thing to get the grammar going like clockwork in their minds so that they're constantly reproducing it, for the most part, correctly.
In my post on the "Resources" thread, I give a small example, but I'd be game talking more on this point. The meat of the question is really, how do you teach and do your students really learn? |
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gregd75
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 360
Location: Tlaquepaque, Jalisco
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| Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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The post was simply aimed at showing you how you can use modeling of INCORRECT GRAMMAR points to help students realise and understand the correct grammar points. Its ONE of a number of strategits that can help students.
I completely agree about introduction vs retention, by the way- I dont just introduce the topic, model structures and then forget about the grammar point. TEFL courses worldwide talk about the need for significant repetition and recycling of the target language
Interestingly, LTLWH says theres no evidence that this leads to accurate production/retention of language. Theres nothing to say that it doesnt, either.
The Grammar in use series uses modeling of incorrect structures in its publications.
Where is the research that refers to the 4% of successful language learning that is achieved in this form? Could you reference your comment, or is it simply in your experience TLWH? Let's see you back up your claims with academic research. If you have it.
It bugs me that such negativity here in the forum drags down the tone for everyone... Come on TLWH lets hear your suggestions... your ideas.. your best practices. I look back through threads and only ever see criticism. Lets be constructive. |
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TheLongWayHome
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 1016
Location: San Luis Piojosi
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| Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| gregd75 wrote: |
Interestingly, LTLWH says theres no evidence that this leads to accurate production/retention of language. Theres nothing to say that it doesnt, either.
The Grammar in use series uses modeling of incorrect structures in its publications.
Where is the research that refers to the 4% of successful language learning that is achieved in this form? Could you reference your comment, or is it simply in your experience TLWH? Let's see you back up your claims with academic research. If you have it.
It bugs me that such negativity here in the forum drags down the tone for everyone... Come on TLWH lets hear your suggestions... your ideas.. your best practices. I look back through threads and only ever see criticism. Lets be constructive. |
If you take off the tefl-tinted glasses you'll see that teaching grammar does not lead to accurate production of language by students. I can't believe the amount of time students spend on grammar for very little in the way of accuracy when they speak or write. At best all you hear is Spanish structure with English words, being honest. And isn't grammar supposed to teach the structure of the English language?
You believe that students learn through coursebooks and grammar and you'll defend it to the death. I'm not going to waste my time pasting research (my own and others) that proves otherwise.
Sorry for the negativity. I just don't agree with the status quo in language teaching. |
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Isla Guapa
Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Posts: 1520
Location: Mexico City o sea La Gran Manzana Mexicana
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| Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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You believe that students learn through coursebooks and grammar and you'll defend it to the death. I'm not going to waste my time pasting research (my own and others) that proves otherwise.
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Why not post the research proving your obviously strongly-held belief that coursebooks and grammar are detrimental to our students for those of us who may be open to your ideas? |
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gregd75
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 360
Location: Tlaquepaque, Jalisco
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| Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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No tefl-tinted glasses here! I just mentioned that I use a series of books called Interchange as I like the wealth of additional resources available to the teacher. The whole idea of my original posting was to provide some suggestions that I have found useful. That was all.
If you were not so negative, TLWH maybe you could accept that some teaching strategies, other than the one that you use may be successful.
A combination of course books, teaching grammatical structures and other strategies permit students to engage in the class and therefore learn.
Although you refuse to back up the WILD claims that you make on this forum, here is some interesting research concerning two approaches to teaching grammar (more than 4% of the class learn through a blend of the two methods used):
http://www.teachingenglish.org.uk/think/articles/presenting-new-language
Theres no need to apologise for your negativity, though. I just wonder how such negativity from the teacher affects the students. |
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gregd75
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 360
Location: Tlaquepaque, Jalisco
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| Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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Another interesting piece of research that proves that using grammar structures DO help students to improve their ability to develop their automatic contol grammatical structures.
Grammar Teaching Practice or Consciousness Raising? by Rod Ellis
http://amandaliao.blogspot.com/2007/12/grammar-teachingpractice-or.html
| Quote: |
| Most teachers fail to see this because they are either a) too wrapped up in useless tefl methodology or b) managed to learn a language themselves this way (counts for 4% of successful language learning). |
Definately think that this comment was wildly inaccurate |
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TheLongWayHome
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 1016
Location: San Luis Piojosi
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| Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| Isla Guapa wrote: |
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You believe that students learn through coursebooks and grammar and you'll defend it to the death. I'm not going to waste my time pasting research (my own and others) that proves otherwise.
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Why not post the research proving your obviously strongly-held belief that coursebooks and grammar are detrimental to our students for those of us who may be open to your ideas? |
I wish I had the time but I've got a 100+ page translation to keep me busy for the next few weeks. Good to hear that people are open to slightly radical ideas though.
Let's face it, the majority of students aren't learning English. Some years ago I set out to find out why and these are the conclusions I'm coming to - as crazy as they sound to some. They go against the whole tefl circus but the bottom line is that people aren't really learning English past the basics. Yes, there are exceptions but very few.
80% of the students at a uni I work at spend 9 semesters studying English and at best get to pre-int. We're at the point now where it's obvious the system (coursebooks) doesn't work yet no one wants to admit it.
On the language degree I teach on at another uni students spend 9 semesters studying English (and French) only to scrape a C or fail at FCE - and these are the students who are motivated.
I've never seen a student go through a series of coursebooks and come out speaking fluent English.
The 4% refers to students who have managed to learn a language to a level of high fluency by sitting in a classroom. It's WILDLY REALISTIC if you open your eyes. This 4% usually go on to become language teachers who then wonder why their students can't learn the same way they did.
I've examined my own teaching to death, tried every methodology. I don't think I'm a bad teacher. I get headhunted on a regular basis.
Teaching grammar and teaching actual language are worlds apart. Teaching grammar then testing language is detrimental to the student - most of which tire of languages pretty quickly, thinking they just don't have what it takes.
As I say, I wish I had more time to go into it. This will probably be my last post on the matter so take it or leave it. If when you look around you can honestly say that your students are learning English and will someday reach a high level of fluency then just keep doing what you're doing. |
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gregd75
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 360
Location: Tlaquepaque, Jalisco
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| Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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Any good teacher must be open to reflection and new ideas. The shame is that this thread hasn't developed any new ideas- just criticism of a methodology that we all accept is flawed but yet works.
Any radical ideas to teaching would be welcomed. I hope that I speak for the majority when I saw that we'd all like to hear about alternative methodologies...
The issue described concerning students never progressing above intermediate level is known as the language plateau. Jack.C.Richards has done a lot of reseach on this area and has developed strategies to help teachers with this well recognised problem.
Stuents need a small amount of vocabulary and grammatical strutures in order to move from an elementary level to lower intermediate. To move beyond intermediate level, students need to increase their vocabulary (learn and retain) exponentially. Grammar pretty much stays the same but the vocab is the key. This problem is encountered if students use course books or not.
As for the problem at the university where students spend 9 semesters and dont progress beyond the plateau, in my experience this is partly created by the institution. I mean- is the university looking for fluency, or are they insisting that students take English and achieve a certain level n order to graduate? Students are studying because they HAVE TO and not because they WANT TO. Thats the real problem. |
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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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| Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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The biggest problem I've encountered, and I think that many teachers feel the same, is that however good the teacher is, (and I'm thinking of great teachers I know, not myself!) even the students who say that they really want to learn don't seem to get the concept that the onus is on THEM. I always try to explain this when I start a course, and they agree, but don't do anything about it. God knows how they managed to get a career!
... which is why I have activities outside teaching. |
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Isla Guapa
Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Posts: 1520
Location: Mexico City o sea La Gran Manzana Mexicana
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| Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil_K wrote: |
| The biggest problem I've encountered, and I think that many teachers feel the same, is that however good the teacher is, (and I'm thinking of great teachers I know, not myself!) even the students who say that they really want to learn don't seem to get the concept that the onus is on THEM. I always try to explain this when I start a course, and they agree, but don't do anything about it. God knows how they managed to get a career! |
Exactly! I've taught students in several countries and in all sorts of educational institutions, and the ones who make real progress are the ones who take it upon themselves to improve. They look for any opportunity they can find to use English and have clear goals for themselves as far as English is concerned. Whenever I start a course, I tell the students that learning a language is a skill that must be practiced, like playing football or the piano. The smart, motivated ones get it, the others become our worst nightmare, or at least a mildly unpleasant dream! |
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TheLongWayHome
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 1016
Location: San Luis Piojosi
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| gregd75 wrote: |
| As for the problem at the university where students spend 9 semesters and dont progress beyond the plateau, in my experience this is partly created by the institution. I mean- is the university looking for fluency, or are they insisting that students take English and achieve a certain level n order to graduate? Students are studying because they HAVE TO and not because they WANT TO. Thats the real problem. |
The idea is that they leave with an FCE. It doesn't work. Most end up leaving with KET and a small majority with a PET to show for their 9 semesters of English. Yes they HAVE TO have a cert to graduate.
In the other university - a language degree - virtually the same happens. Students are supposed to leave with an FCE and B1 cert in French. The ones in 8th, 9th semester are barely at FCE level in English and their French is at best mediocre - and these are the ones that WANT to learn languages. Incidentally both places use the same coursebook. On the language degree a teacher must cover one unit a week - there's no escape from the thing. |
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gregd75
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 360
Location: Tlaquepaque, Jalisco
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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The language plateau is the problem of students not being able to advance beyond intermediate level. It's exactly what you describe here.
Its partly caused by students motivation - lack of, and also fustration after students see great progress as they move from beginner to intermediate.
The biggest issue is that the move from intermediate to advanced is based on vocabulary, critical thinking and fluency. As I said, once grammar is learned, its easy to use at all levels, but trying to use the verb 'get' is sooo much more difficult.
Corpus research shows us that native speakers don't really know when they use the verb- so how can it be taught!?
This problem really isn't related to text books. Its much bigger than that. |
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