Job Discussion Forums

[mejms]

I completely agree, Greg. Every day that I'm with my more conversational, advanced students, it always occurs to me: English, with all its nuances and irregularities, is a damn hard language to learn. Prepositions, phrasal verbs, use of "get," irregular verbs, extensive vocabulary. English is irregular and that makes it hard to teach and even more frustrating to get to a "fluent" or "proficient" level.

Text books are neither entirely the problem nor the solution. This thread has lost its purpose, and I'm partly responsible. My question was really getting at if teachers use Spanish-English specific resources. Then we talked about using Spanish in the classroom, period. Then we started talking about language institutes. Then about course books.

The problem with no course books sounds like no structure. What's your structure without a book? But the problem with course books is that there's nothing personalized about them. The topics aren't personalized. If you're using Market Leader in company classes, who says that an Accountant wants to learn the technical vocab from the unit on Marketing?
Or even if the topic is good, say giving directions for lower intermediate students, why use a generic map of invented streets and shops? The students first have to familiarize themselves with the map and names of places, then where they're located, and then focus on giving directions. How many things are going on in their mind at once? And the first two mental activities are unnecessary and irrelevant for learning to give directions. Use an area in the city as an example to practice giving directions. Go to Google earth, take them on a tour of the city (or rather have them take you). Technology is amazing.

TLWH, you've got good ideas and I agree with a lot of your rationale, but be more constructive. What's the alternative to course books? If this post is worth anything, let's see who's got innovative ideas.

Greg, you've got good things to say and you're plugged into the TEFL world, but be more realistic. If these language schools are so bad, why do they have the same students continuing? Come on. Be serious. Most of these schools don't have the same students continuing, largely because many students aren't motivated but also largely because the classes aren't motivating. Classes are generic because the books are of course. There is definitely a complacency towards status quo when it comes to education in many places.

[gregd75]

I looked back at the thread and I think that my original point was that Spanish is not necessary in an EFL class. There are teachers out there, in the world who teach without the use of L1.

This makes me wonder why L1 is being used in the class and I have concluded that it is because we (the classroom teachers) are being lazy.

The discussion moved onto how its not laziness because people use L1 to check understanding, which, I argue is completely possible to do in English.

As for language schools, as I have said time and time before. I will defend language schools here on the forum because NOT ALL language schools are bad. Some yes, some no. Some restaurants are good, some are not. The same with any business.

The books are wrong, The classes are not motivating, the course is generic, the students aren't learning... the same problems over and over again. What if its nothing to do with the students, but in fact the teacher pushing responsibility for the students learning onto everyone and everything other than themselves?

Personally speaking-- my school offers a guarantee that if they fail their level they can repeat again for free. teachers decide who passes and fails and there is no pressure by me to pass or fail people. My idea is that if the students are happy, then they'll recommend my school. This is my way of trying to change the status quo.

If a student isn't learning in my class then I ask myself what am I doing wrong? Way too many teachers blame everything else and forget their responsibility as a teacher.

[sweeney66]

Well, I guess I'll weigh in on this one.
My best use of Spanish in the classroom has been to encourage reluctant speakers.
I was a dweller on the intermediate plateau for a very long time, myself, so I like to demonstrate that errors are just no big deal, by giving a minute or two example of my Spanish.
Then I ask.. hey class, were there any errors in that? Of course there were at least a couple.
Then...but did you understand the meaning? Well, of course.
I find that being vulnerable and not perfectionistic like that really helps demonstrate that learning is a process.
And every one gets a laugh at the teacher and lightens up.

[Dragonlady]

[gregd75]

Excellent post dragonlady. I really like it.

[TheLongWayHome]

The majority of students spend 80% of the time studying grammar yet their English, if you listen to it objectively, is Spanish structure with English words. There doesn't seem to be a lot of pay-off studying grammar and/or having a class completely in English. They get stuck at pre-int simply because they haven't had enough comprehensible input. Too much emphasis is put on production, and production without comprehension won't take you past intermediate. Unfortunately students are seduced by language school marketing - bilingue en a�o, and so on. The plateau theory is just a poor excuse for a heavily flawed methodology. If learning is really taking place you will experience plateaus but these are just temporary assimilation periods - the brain needs to do this from time to time, then you move on.

[gregd75]

How can you have successful production without comprehension? Production of a language goes beyond simple repetition. Students need to think about the exercise and produce meaningful language to resolve the task presented.

Could anyone propose possible alternatives? Personally speaking, I like 3Ps at the lower levels. I like its structure and I like the way that students advance. Maybe the learning plateau is no excuse at all- it has been well researched and solutions to the proble presented.

I think everyone reading this thread would like to hear alternatives. I know that I would

[Phil_K]

Plateaux, TLWH! Tut, Tut, French teacher.

[mejms]

Dragonlady, that post was better than your blanket "I disagree" opening.

I agree that, in the end, it's all about personalizing your classes and the learning process.

Of course, I'm responsible for the 3 threads on the same 2 topics. Each time I was trying to tweek the opening thread ever so slightly because I felt like we were getting derailed in the other threads.

I didn't mean to get in a debate about the effectiveness of course books. And I didn't mean to debate whether using Spanish is appropriate.

The real question I had for people is: do you think using Spanish-English specific grammar lessons is a good idea? Do you do it? Any course book or grammar book will draw out particular grammar points, but Mexicans make the same mistakes because they're beginning with the same native language.

Are you agree? I have 20 years here in the city. I call you tomorrow. The list goes on and on. So don't you think it's more than worthwhile to target those common errors? My explanation on the other thread of the difference between "Was/Were & Did" is largely because this point is hard for Mexicans because in Spanish the difference doesn't exist.

That's what I wanted to get at in all these threads. Do or would you teach Mexicans different than Chinese students? Aren't mistakes likely to be common to people of the same native language, not just general ESL students?

[TheLongWayHome]

[TheLongWayHome]

[Phil_K]

This approach works very well in business classes too. I'm giving a business writing class to very intelligent and almost fluent students. In the first class, outlining the best approach for letters and emails, I expressed the need for conciseness, and used the expression, "Don't waffle". Of course, when I asked, no one knew what this meant! However, during the class the opportunity to repeat this phrase presented itself many times, to the extent that some students were accusing others of waffling! If they took nothing else from that class, they at least learnt a new word. Actually, they took a lot from the class, and one word isn't much, but ask yourself; How many classes do you give when you feel that the students know no more when they leave than when they entered?

[Phil_K]

[geaaronson]

I teach 5-6 new vocabulary words each day. For my Gastronomy students, I introduce culinary terms, ie. colander, stir fry, sautee, etc. by writing the words out on the board. In turn, I describe in English each word with out giving its counterpart meaning. I watch the students as their expressions change from initially understanding what I am saying until finally one gets the correct idea and blurts out the Spanish equivalent to the whole class.
In part, the sense of competition among the students gets them started. Their interest is afire as they want to beat the others in getting the meaning.
Students are given exercise in listening to the teacher and hearing someone talk about their field of study.
And then finally, since everyone has participated the memory sticks a little tighter.
I do inform them they must write the word down and still look it up to make sure.

[mejms]