Job Discussion Forums

[JamesD]

From a grammar text which I have used as a resource for years; in a chapter discussing "should" I came across this example.

"Jane suggested (that) Tom should buy a car."
Under this is an alternative phrasing given as also correct -
"Jane suggested Tom bought a car."

To my American ear this second usage sounds incorrect as it means that Jane was talking to a third party and made a comment that IMPLIED Tom had bought a car.
There are a couple of other similar examples such as "I demanded that he apologized." which sounds to me to be a misuse of tense and should read "I demanded that he apologise."
The example above would be "Jane suggested that Tom buy a car." meaning Jane made the suggestion (to Tom) earlier.

So is this common British usage or am I discombobulated?

[caleypatrick]

I don't know what text you're using, but those examples just don't make sense to me.

Janes suggested Tom should buy a car. (I don't like should in the same sentence because should is a suggestion in itself so why be redundant. You are correct, Jane could be making the suggestion to Chairman Mao.)

Jane suggested to Tom that he buy a car. (This is ok and very clear.)

Jane suggested Tom buy a car. (This suggestion could be to whomever.)

And the two simple past tenses in your second example are just wrong.

Now, you could be using some SweatShop grammar text that was pilfered back in the 1980s to impress the Han Horde that the school was legitimate. Who knows. More information required.

[JamesD]

Well thank god it's not just me. Was worried that the Alzheimer's was kicking in.

It's actually Murphy's English Grammar in Use; a pure British text (Cambridge) that's been around for years. A pretty standard reference and normally something I trust implicitly. But dang, this does sound weird to me.
It does say these are correct-
"Jane suggested that Tom should buy a car."
"Jane suggested that Tom buy a car."

but then they throw in-
"Jane suggested that Tom bought a car."
"I demanded that he apologised."
and the book says this form has the same meaning and use it as correct in the examples and several of the exercises. I'm just wondering if anyone here actually uses this form in everyday speech.

[sojourner]

James,

Why don't you submit you query to Dave's General Forum ? There's a guy who often frequents that forum called "Fluffymunster" (or something like that) who's a real grammar freak. He'll set you right !

Peter

[The Ever-changing Cleric]

[Randolf]

[colonel]

I accord with the previous views but suggest another take on (2).

(1) Tom was having difficulty getting to work. He asked for advice.

Jane suggested (that)Tom should buy a car.


(2) A third person says,

"Tom has bought a car - it was Jane's suggestion".

Jane suggested Tom bought a car.

[Dedicated]

Reading this post seems to me to be confusion over what is actual suggestion, in which case the subjunctive is used, and what is reported speech.

The subjunctive is used to emphasise urgency or importance :
eg. I suggest (that) he study
I suggested (that) he study

In these structures, the subjunctive is always the same. It doesn't matter whether the sentence is past or present.
eg. (Present) The President requests (that )they stop the conference
(Past) The President requested (that) they stop the conference.

However, if somebody is asked " What did the President request at the meeting last week?", they would probably report it as :

The President requested they stopped the conference.

This is no longer a " suggestion" but a reported statement.

As for the use of "should" as a subjunctive - the word "should" is sometimes used to express the idea of " subjunctiveness". This form is used more in British English.

eg. The doctor recommended that she should see a specialist.

That's my two-penny worth.

[JamesD]

[Randolf]

and people here have the hide to complain about the money they are offered for english 'teaching' positions.

[colonel]

[Lobster]

Keep in mind that 'suggest' carries two major meanings (as well as several minor ones):

1. to propose
2. to report or imply.

Thus, "Jane suggested (that) Tom buy a car." is a proposal, whereas "Jane suggested (that) Tom bought a car." is an implication.

I think this is what EEC was trying to get across.

Here is another correct use (suggest as an indication):

Randolf's comment suggested disbelief that EFL teachers could complain about their wages.

RED

[fluffyhamster]

Fluffymunster the grammar freak reporting in LOL (I didn't see this thread until now!).

About the most detailed (that is, reasonably empirical) resource I have on this sort of thing is Algeo's British or American English? A Handbook of Word and Grammar Patterns (CUP 2006). Most of the relevant chapter ('12: Mandative constructions') appears (at the time of typing) previewable on Google Books, but I'll quote what seems to be the key part here:

[la dolce vita]

the second examples are used in colloquial english but they are not correct

[JamesD]