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cormac
Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 768
Location: Xi'an (XTU)
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 Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| El Chupacabra wrote: |
| Jejune revenge fantasies is a very condescending phrase, TOS. There is nothing juvenile about complying with the law. In the case of Gene's hypothetical procedure, it also has nothing to do with pre-contract negotiation. It's up to us FTs to stand up for our rights; I hardly see what's juvenile about that. |
Personally I don't think he's being condescending at all. Perhaps he would have been better off using naive instead?
Anyone who has been in Asia (never mind just China) for any amount of time knows that there is a difference between the law and what is enforced by the law. Simply put, while it might be listed somewhere doesn't mean its going to be enforced unless a FT or Chinese individual has the political/financial backing to push it through.
I've spoken to Chinese friends who have lost jobs in the past, and they've just accepted it as fact and moved on. They realise that they don't have any influence in this area, and the establishment they're facing will have way more resources than them to influence matters.
For FTs the only right that exists is what is written in our contracts. Its our only real legal tender in any negotiations beyond the needs of the school for having a FT. [Unless you have some serious connections, and bribing power?]
For myself, I wonder why the very people in China who have seen the various walls which Chinese people place between them and foreigners, expect that they would be treated differently? If Chinese people themselves can't get real help from their labor laws, why would foreigners do any better?
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| It seems more puerile to lie down with our bellies up in these situations. While the OP may have his/her case dismissed, it would be very mature to go through the motions. I gathered that that was Gene's point. Belittling that suggestion is perhaps a bit. . .jejune? |
Going through the motions for what purpose? If you don't expect to succeed all you're doing is labeling yourself as a troublemaker and those sort of reputations stick in Districts/Provinces.
Lastly, there are quite a few FTs out there that either don't match the Visa requirements for work, or have done work external to the school despite their visa requirements.... Farmed out to Kinders, or doing privates... whatever... The point is though that it would be very easy for any school to point to these actions to discredit a FT demands... Unless of course, you have managed to avoid all of these little activities...In which case we're back to my original point... Why would FTs get better treatment than Chinese individuals? |
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JamesD
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 934
Location: "As far as I'm concerned bacon comes from a magical happy place."
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:21 am Post subject: |
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Not to stir the pot, but if you want to work under the terms of the new Chinese Labor Law then you're welcome to do so if the employer agrees. FTs work under SAFEA which is a totally different animal.
You might want to compare the working conditions/contract terms of FTs and local employees before you sign a standard Labor Law contract.
Common terms of a LL contract -
You will receive a yearly bonus of one month salary. You will not receive reimbursement for flights or any type of travel outside of work.
Housing is not provided. While a housing allowance was common for management level employees in the past, under the new rules it is rare beyond dormitory housing for laborers. Be ready to pay your own rent and buy your own furniture/appliances.
Tax is on a sliding scale and you will be paying up to 25% of your gross salary. The employer has to pay an additional 40%.
Utilities are not paid and there is no allowance except for a yearly heating fee in some parts of the north.
If equality is what you're after then it's easier than you think. Any employer should be happy to sign a contract with an FT using the Labor Law contract; it means they wouldn't have to worry about housing you, fixing anything that breaks in your apartment, standing in line to pay your utilities, reimbursing a flight home, furnishing a house, and having someone on staff to take care of you. Yes, you would see a rise in salaries, but is it worth having to function on your own?
There are plenty of expats living in China working for foreign and domestic companies under these conditions, if you're willing to give up the free rent, (some) utilities, start paying full taxes (the exemption starts at 500 RMB/month rather than your current 4800), and deal with all the minutiae of daily living then go for it.
(ECC - the majority of the Chinese employees I know actually get the severance pay. Seems that most companies are abiding by the new rules as it is now much easier for the workers to appeal to local labor bureaus and hold them to the terms.)
Rant over. |
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gene
Joined: 03 Mar 2010
Posts: 187
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:04 am Post subject: |
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| For FTs the only right that exists is what is written in our contracts. |
If labor laws are not observed then what guarantees would a FT have that a contract stipulation would be observed and with the attitude illustrated in you post, it would be futile to address any inadequacy.
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| Not to stir the pot, but if you want to work under the terms of the new Chinese Labor Law then you're welcome to do so if the employer agrees. FTs work under SAFEA which is a totally different animal. |
Not all FTs work under a SAFEA contract. Regulations should agree with labor laws.
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| Common terms of a LL contract - |
Not aware of a standard LL contract. I am currently involved with Foreign own companies and this has not been the case at all and the protections enjoyed by their employees far exceed anything SAFEA standard offers.
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Housing is not provided. While a housing allowance was common for management level employees in the past, under the new rules it is rare beyond dormitory housing for laborers. Be ready to pay your own rent and buy your own furniture/appliances. |
Much like companies in your natives, different companies offer different bennies, such as housing stipends. Non taxable at that. While true I did buy my own furniture, apartments are rented furnish and while some folks may need taking care of, others have the maturity level to provide for them selves.
Since we are not talking bout signing a contract that is specific to LL (if one exist) the subjectivity of the SAFEA contract and the Foreign worker to labor law is all that needs to be considered.
As this all takes place when one leaves their position's after some time in service to the org, it will likely not apply to many foreign workers. As has been noted, Chinese workers have been (in some legally operating business received their due) under this system for a short while and it seems to be taking hold in major cities. It is just a matter of time and procedure til the authorities and owners must consider the universal application of labor law.
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| Anyone who has been in Asia (never mind just China) for any amount of time knows that there is a difference between the law and what is enforced by the law. Simply put, while it might be listed somewhere doesn't mean its going to be enforced unless a FT or Chinese individual has the political/financial backing to push it through. |
Workers have the sear numbers of procedure to aid the process but for sure if the attitude shown by your Chinese friends just to accept it is mirrored by leaving FTs, then you are sadly correct, nothing is to be done.
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uote:
It seems more puerile to lie down with our bellies up in these situations. While the OP may have his/her case dismissed, it would be very mature to go through the motions. I gathered that that was Gene's point. Belittling that suggestion is perhaps a bit. . .jejune?
Going through the motions for what purpose? If you don't expect to succeed all you're doing is labeling yourself as a troublemaker and those sort of reputations stick in Districts/Provinces. |
With your attitude, then I totally agree with you. If you do not understand the purpose of trying to obtain labor rights that will benefit FTs in the future then by all means, play it safe and don't request actions that comply with labor law or for that matter if they violate your contract why make a fuss and label yourself as a trouble maker. Look I am not advocating anyone afraid of the consequences place themselves in a position that they are not prepared for and if FTs want to be considered a work force as opposed to a entertainment pool, this is an opportunity to do so. The choice belongs to the individual but as I write, some are brave enough to test the waters and to dare to file for in a legal manor their due under the existing labor laws then this is just one channel to that end.
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| Personally I don't think he's being condescending at all. Perhaps he would have been better off using naive instead? |
As there are many folks on this board that have alternative agendas ( what ever they might be), it is advantage to them to discredit post with characterizations that are unflattering. A unattractive point of debate between two opposing opinions and little more but it does illustrate how threatening the aspect of FTs who request fair and equal treatment under the law are regarded and the attempts to discredit their post. |
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El Chupacabra
Joined: 22 Jul 2009
Posts: 378
Location: Kwangchow
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| I don't feel discredited at all. It's always better to stand up for yourself. IMHO that's what separates the men from the boys. |
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JamesD
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 934
Location: "As far as I'm concerned bacon comes from a magical happy place."
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:45 am Post subject: |
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[quote="gene"]
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Not aware of a standard LL contract. |
They're available from the Labor Bureau and must be obtained by a rep of the company doing the hiring, they are numbered and tracked by company. What most companies do is simply draw up their own version which uses this as a template. The Labor Bureau allows this as long as the basic terms of the official LL contract are covered. The official government printed contract is used only if both parties choose to do so or the company prefers it as standard practice. A pretty good translation is here....
http://wenku.baidu.com/view/bbc1e800bed5b9f3f90f1cde.html.
The format is very similar to SAFEA in that the basic terms are laid out and there are blanks for the variables such as salary, length of contract, benefits, and penalties. |
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Teatime of Soul
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 905
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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I see nothing wrong with any employee doing due diligence and trying to get whatever he or she thinks he is due. That's what I would expect of any mature adult.
I think I made that clear.
But, an FT who "wants to "school" an administrator to take them down a notch"?
That's an interesting motivation.
But, we stray from the topic. By all means, insist on a Labor Board contract in your future negotiations if you feel you'll be better off.
Perhaps the thread title is not entirely exact. Perhaps what it should read is "Will FTs get a Better Deal using a Labor Board Contract", since we are discussing something different than the standard SAFEA contract.
Cheers. |
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El Chupacabra
Joined: 22 Jul 2009
Posts: 378
Location: Kwangchow
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:03 am Post subject: |
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| Teatime of Soul wrote: |
I see nothing wrong with any employee doing due diligence and trying to get whatever he or she thinks he is due. That's what I would expect of any mature adult.
I think I made that clear.
But, an FT who "wants to "school" an administrator to take them down a notch"?
That's an interesting motivation.
But, we stray from the topic. By all means, insist on a Labor Board contract in your future negotiations if you feel you'll be better off.
Perhaps the thread title is not entirely exact. Perhaps what it should read is "Will FTs get a Better Deal using a Labor Board Contract", since we are discussing something different than the standard SAFEA contract.
Cheers. |
For some individuals, an emotionally expressive style may work to resolve the conflict, while for others a more reserved discussion style may work. Sure, a motivation to cut a bureacrat down to size may cause high-blood pressure, but the ends are the same, standing up for oneself.
The thread title is still accurate, IMHO, if we consider that we have been exploring how not to be taken advantage of. Though we disagree on the means, the ends desired are the same (ie. to not get screwed and to give each other the most sensible advice based on our unique experiences and perspectives).
As someone who sees little value in the exact words of a Chinese contract, I probably would take a different tack then you or Gene might, however I'm glad to learn of the differences between the Labor Board and SAFEA contracts. Since I'm considering a post as a contractor for a company based in Singapore, the considerations of contract arrangements are very interesting reading. In my native US, I might value the words of a contract more because I know how the legal culture works there. |
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Teatime of Soul
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 905
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:57 am Post subject: |
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El Chupacabra, I think you put the cap on this thread in an eloquent and balanced manner.
Really, not much to add to your points.
Cheers. |
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