Job Discussion Forums

[Cubism]

The FAO here (Shijiazhuang Univ of Economics) said she won't recommend me/release me for university jobs.

1. Are there other types of teaching work in China that don't require that form? Language school, technical colleges, etc.?

2. Are other visas sometimes granted, like an F visa, hence no foreign expert rigamarole? I had this happen twice and didn't expect it. The schools just gave me F visas -- like it or leave. Wonder if those are still around -- that kind of work? What do you think?

Thanks.

[mnguy29]

Try a language mill like Web or EF. They are always desperate for teachers.

[dakelei]

Hmmm...one option is to try another province.

I worked at a university that was telling me to my face a release/reference letter would be "no problem" but then proceeded to trash me when other schools called. I went to the office one day with a very bland letter that I'd written myself. I insisted it be signed and stamped on the the spot and it was. What I've discovered, as have many others here, is that it means nothing unless it's in writing. When I showed schools the signed and stamped reference letter (on official school letterhead) it overrode anything the school was saying verbally. If the school where you are has deemed you so horrible that you don't warrant a reference letter then why did it keep you around an entire term or school year? Try something like this: Go to the person who is refusing you the letter. Bring a trusted Chinese friend if you don't speak/write Chinese on a high enough level. Insist that this official WRITE DOWN and sign/stamp a letter documenting every transgression you allegedly committed and which resulted in you being refused a letter. Do NOT lose your temper. Be assertive but as gentle as you can be. Try to make this person be as specific as possible. Dates would be helpful. This will make the official extremely uncomfortable, trust me. In my case the woman in the office who utterly despised me, for reasons completely unrelated to my job, was forced to sit quietly while her boss signed and stamped my reference letter. In your case: If the transgressions listed were so bad, is there a written record of them anywhere? Can these records be produced if they do indeed exist? Was any disciplinary action taken AT THE TIME? Were you told there was a problem, IN WRITING? Most petty bureaucrats here would rather just give you what you need than submit to such scrutiny. They do not want to draw attention to themselves. (Aside:At my university just about everyone in the FAO was a "guanxi" hire and the woman who held the most power, other than the director himself, was a petty shrew who was hired only because her husband was a popular math professor. All the FT's either outright hated her or tried their hardest to deal with her as little as possible. )

If, however, you really DID do something awful, like have regular orgies in your apartment and the school has pics to prove it, disregard this advice.

As far as finding other employment possibilities, don't fret. You don't say one way or the other but if you have a passport from a native English speaking country and look the part you'll find something even if it's not 1000% "legal." The alarmists here who warn against teaching on the wrong visa mean well and all but, trust me, thousands of FT's are working here in China without the "proper" visa. You'll be OK. Relax.

[gene]

many do circumvent the regulations and do work on Fs, which in many cases does free the FT to do as he pleases and in some cases can come with risk. Some legal jobs do employ instructors on the F and other training schools use the Alien Workers permit, which is what I did when a employer failed to provide the required letter, instead using the closing ceremonial graduation event to cover the fact that he absconded with the school funds. In some areas they are treated like FExps Books and will require a release letter as well but in other areas this book is gleefully free of attachments which many who work under the present system are happy to avoid. Many of those who speak of the law here on Dave's are not dutifully trained to give legal advice or do they have access to the "law" and instead rely on reprinted breakdowns or have had some "Chinese " person, student or relative tell them where the law applies. While I would not advocate breaking the law, that is a personal decision, but I would not define my legal work experience by what you hear on these pages.

[Lobster]

Well, sure it's ok for them to follow the law, but I think they should follow all the laws (e.g. the one-month severance). The fact is, there are some pretty shady employers out there who only follow the laws that benefit them and ignore those who don't (same with some teachers).

No, I don't agree with you Brookes that it's "about time" that a letter given at an employer's discretion becomes a government requirement for future employment, and I'm afraid you come across as employer-biased to think so.

This requirement could easily be used by an employer to leverage out-of-contract requirements from an FT. "You won't take overtime? No R/R Letter!" "You want to refuse that job 3 hours away? Fine, no R/R Letter!" Unfortunately, this type of pressure would work best against established FTs who plan to remain in one location for a long time. It's scary to think that your visa renewal prospects hinge on the opinions of some shady mill operator who was set up in business by his daddy and who has absolutely no clue about education outside of following the profit motive.

It would be a fine thing if everyone followed the rules, but that's just not happening, nor is it likely to start happening anytime in the near future.

RED

[dakelei]

I, too, have a problem with the "about time" comment and am weary of certain posters here who, for whatever reason, hold their noses up in the air like they are so much better than the rest of us. Universities are extremely political places here in China and are often staffed by party lackeys who think nothing of taking money budgeted for foreign teachers and spending it on lavish dinners and anything else they might want to use it for. I was very nearly denied a reference letter and had a lot of trouble finding a new job after leaving a university at which there was absolutely no dispute at all with my actual ability as a teacher. What I did was insist on minor things like actually getting paid what my contract said I was supposed to get paid. For that I was branded "difficult" by a woman in the FAO who became practically obsessed with making my post-university life as difficult as possible. I have no problem with someone who is a crummy teacher, a drunk or whatever not getting their letter but I also firmly believe there should be some evidence of a process. Like I stated in my earlier post why would a school keep you around so long if you were so awful? How can a school keep you around for a year, for example? After a term it would have to know you suck and let you go. To keep you around another term and then, when it's over, suddenly decide you are such a terrible teacher you don't deserve to even be in the country anymore seems to me a bit bizarre. It's way too easy for someone with a personal beef to deny an FT a letter just to "get even." At my school I was never formally evaluated even one time and was never even observed. The woman who was determined to destroy me didn't even work on the same campus as me and had no idea at all what kind of teacher I was. I'm not going to blindly defend all my fellow FT's. Some clearly DO deserve being denied a reference. And if it's because they can't teach I'm completely in favor of them being denied such a letter. However when an FT is branded as a "problem" simply because he wants the salary and benefits he was promised, well, it's not right for a petty bureaucrat to attempt to even the score by denying him or her a reference.

As for teaching on an "F", well, there are some who say it's completely legal if the contract is 6 months or less. (I also grow weary of the seemingly endless discussions about this topic. It seems no one completely understands the "regulations" and as soon as one does they change.) Both of my FT colleagues here at my middle school are doing so. (I have a "Z.") I have worked as a teacher here in China for almost 7 years altogether and for maybe half that time I worked on F visas. I never had a problem. When the Olympic nonsense came down the pike I decided to get legal and I've been legal ever since. It certainly reduces my anxiety level a bit. However, the folks here who rail endlessly against FT's working not quite legally tend to annoy me as most self-righteous types in general do. There is plenty of work to go around here in China and nobody who is "legal" is losing a job to someone who isn't. Let's lighten up a bit, OK?

[gene]

[jamesmollo]

I am suprised people here still claim to be working on a z-visa. You can't work on a z-visa! it is just a stepping stone to getting an R.P.F! z-visas are only valid for 30 days apon arrival into China.
As for the release letter, I have managed to secure work legally without one in the past. My previous work visa was just cancelled and a new one issued. It really depends on the connections of your new employer, OP.
The standard form of release can say that your are released 'by reccommendation' so it can be one and the same as a reference letter. Having said that it really doesn't matter, I've been through this process many times, It's just paperwork. The pencil pushers really don't care, as long as they have something in front of them to process.
If worst comes to worse just use your current visa to work somewhere else, wait for it to expire, get a tourist visa, then let your new employer change it over to an r.p.f therefore the process starts again, no need for a release letter.If your new employer has good connections with the p.s.b, this should be relatively painless.

[El Chupacabra]

[Cubism]

Yes, I was and am tremendously assertive. I went to the City SAFEA June 1 with all these perfect documents. Had a colleague phone them after 10 days, the director completely denied my claims. Contract breaches, everything. I'd even quoted China Labor Law update effectic.ve Jan 2008, and he told us there was no such law. Etc.

Now I have got down to this part: the FAO at this unii said she got a doc saying I was blacklisted and it was illegal to recommend me! After waiting 2 weeks she sent for me to fetch it. I haven't had it translated yet. Met yesterday with the dog's body FAO who practically wept when I refused to tell her where I was going next, said they were a bunch of snakes, etc. Said I'd accept even a stamped l sentence declaration that I had finished the contract and hurt no one (sent them the Labor Law citation that makes this a law).


However, I am learning that these folks can do anything they want to us. The FAO is psycho, thinks she's in the Cultural REvolution smashing ft's. But she chooses not to break into my apartment or harass me in class. She does choose to destroy my career. It's far out that she's getting away with it, in one way. In another, I'm happy to teach at a lower rung vo tech trade school or something. Those are the people who are nice to me, anyway...

Well, so I ditched a job that wanted to take a strict For Expert line; it involved my telling lies and -- it's just not worth it.

Thanks for your concern, and I'm still slugging away.

[Teatime of Soul]

The lack of a recommendation letter, or even a negative letter, is not a show stopper.

There are plenty of employers who understand the things that can happen with a rogue of an FAO.

Get them committed to hiring you and then make any necessary explanations.

[El Chupacabra]

Or try zapping her with a broken lamp cord. That might whet her appetite for Cultural Revolution-y stuff.

Bottom line, is you got an atypical situation, not just a garden-variety pass-the-buck weasel of an FAO. You definitely need to go way beyond assertive. You have my empathy.

Worse case, you can market a CV without your prior China jobs on it. You'll have to get a visa from your home country, which is an an expensive hassle, but then the new FAO is not beholden to having a reference/release form. Technically, you should be able to include any jobs that ended before May of 2008, when this procedure kicked in.

Good luck!

[Cubism]

So far 2 employers split so fast when they got the negatives...just dazzling. Also the city FAO's being a crook was just kind of horrid. The whole office is operating in another universe ..which is just life in the prc-- except I'm dumped in a cardboard box under a bridge.

Well, so I wrote the well paying school again to reconsider me; the thought of going to the far west or something just made me fierce again.

and El Ch, I can't go to my home c for a visa: impossible. I wrote the new res. using my last immaculate & documented uni here.

For the new visa -- what about HK? An L. That's my plan.

Thank you. Let me know your ideas re: HK pls...

[Cubism]

El Chupacabdra, the critical issue (now I think I understand this kind of scarey scheme) is WHEN?

WHEN do I get the new visa? I'm working until the end of June. Then? That's cool. This week? That's also cool. But then I'd have an L visa in my pp during the final work days at this hellish place.

WHEN do i find the next job? Now? And make them wait for a copy of my visa until I've got it? July 1,` when I can actually deal with them?

Seems better to do it now. Say I'm traveling but want to teach in China. You know, I started all this alone but got cold feet...

THANK YOU

[Non Sequitur]

I think Teatime is closest to it actually.
When I needed a release letter I found my best ally was the FAO of the college I was going to.
My new employer was a national tier 1 uni and my ex was a provincial vocational school.
He (the FAO) just heavied the old school.
I found out later that the old outfit had pretensions to provincial uni status and likely didn't want to antagonise the establishment.
I think the need to hire will trump the desire to disrupt.
However, if you are a serial drunk, lecher or dud teacher you should take the hint. Not the case here, I'm sure.