Job Discussion Forums

[H5N1]

The Director of SIBME school in Ho Chi Minh City has just posted that the police and Labor Department officials led 3 teachers out of the school that did not have degrees and work permits.

2 British and 1 Australian teacher.

Is this an isolated incident, or a sign of things to come.

[laconic]

Long time coming but it sounds like it has arrived. PNL businesses will be taking a hit, too.

[londo]

I read the post in the 'other' site. Written late at night after last orders and it said 2 Aussies and 1 Brit and no mention of school. like everything on these boards; a very large pinch of salt needed. Let's see shall we - but come on guys, if you were reading about Mexican, Indian, Afghan workers working illegally in the States, Oz or UK would you be tearing your hair out or saying 'cheeky b**gers - chuck 'em out' ?
Vietnam only progressed from 3rd world to developing nation status some 6 -7 years ago, it takes time to build a legal structure that reflects a presence in a global marketplace - they are doing it now - and one thing that is common to all nations is the requirement for qualifications in any professional field. The employers are also going to have to improve their management skills, but this is going to be too late for most of the unqualified MOD EDIT

[just noel]

[londo]

That is what people wanted...confirmation. OK, so why were they escorted from the premises? ...not having WPs or not being qualified? If they were qualified but without WPs, how long had they been working?, why hadn't the school helped with the initial process?.... yes we all know the answer ..because they didn't want the hassle and didn't want to register their workers and yet the poster on the other site said they had been 'paying' tax or had the school just withheld tax? -- what is happening, in legal terms, to the school? If they were not qualified enough to get WPs..well what can we say?...nothing. Who called the boys in green and Ministry bods?, or was it a planned visit.....me thinks the school might be spring cleaning?
All of this does NOT sound like normal practice, as a company owner, I can assure you all there are NOT enough inspectors to do random raids such as this without being sure there would be a nice bit of back-slapping congrats for a job well done and not the usual 'nice little earner'

[londo]

As an aside to this, many companies, not just schools, who employ foreigners were briefly visited after Tet and warned that they better start at least some WP processes and that they would be back in July. Most companies took this into consideration and started with at least one process. Maybe this particular school didn't play the game so a little general reminder was needed. At this point, if this is the case, we can expect similar one-off visits to Korean restaurants, Taiwanese T. shirt factories and Japanese software companies, remember this is not a targetted campaign against Language centres.
Only the school knows for sure, so maybe this 'director' would like to enlighten us.

[just noel]

[londo]

so they were shown the door because they were teaching an academic subject without basic qualifications ...... so what do we do? ...cry?. Now what happens to the school'......let's see, and maybe I'm an idiot but, a director is senior management...if he doesn't know all the details...he's not management...just the 'white' face, if he is indeed a 'director' then TELL US what happened!.

[vietexpat2008]

I think we need to separate the facts from what we think SHOULD be happening.

Although there's a lot of rumor of unreliable information, we can see that Vietnam is intent on clearing out excess foreigners, probably to coincide with their big communist anniversary or whatever it is they think is so important. We know that visas renewals are being denied to lots of people, and we can see the police are hassling some foreigners who don't have their work permits.

What we don't know is how serious and widespread it is, and how far the government really intends to go. It could be they will just round up a few unlucky people and kick them out, or they could get really tough and go from school to school and business to business systematically checking documents and deporting. They probably will not do that, but we just don't know at the moment.

A friend of mine worked in Thailand a few years back when Thailand was doing something similar. He says (I have no idea how accurate this is) they finally reached a point where you had to leave the country and could not return for 30 days before they would grant another visa. There, as in Vietnam, work permits were difficult to get. After awhile, the government relented and allowed schools to determine who was qualified to teach there, and work permits were granted easily.

Now, as to what I think is happening and what SHOULD happen:

I think the Vietnamese government is doing this for political reasons. This government values political peace and quiet above economic development. A strong economy with high employment helps keep everyone happy, but economic times are getting tough, and God alone knows what the finances of this country look like behind the scenes. The government very much wants to make sure Vietnamese have jobs, and that means getting rid of low end foreign workers.

Thus, the demand for qualifications. They are casting a wide net to get rid of many foreigners, and that net is going to catch quite a few they may actually want to keep, but their bureaucracy is a blunt, unwieldy instrument that is hard to fully control, so there it is.

What I think they SHOULD do is leave Westerners alone. Westerners are not here to take construction jobs from Vietnamese. They are here to teach English, work as experts in their field, or spend money--all positive things Vietnam needs.

The problem comes from the Vietnamese government's insistence that it knows how to hire teachers and foreign experts better than the companies doing the hiring. Obviously, it does not, but you cant' expect economic brilliance from a government that calls itself communist. To maximize the economic benefit, the government should let the market decide which schools are businesses should thrive, and which should be allowed to fail.

That means letting schools and parents and businesses decide which foreigners to keep, and which to dismiss. There is clearly a huge market demand for English instruction and there are not, nor will there ever be, enough genuinely qualified teachers to fill the positions. That means that cheaper schools will take on less qualified teachers, and poorer students get a lower quality education.

This is as it should be. The consumer needs to be the one to make the decision to buy or not buy, not some aparatchick in Hanoi who thinks he has all the answers. By short-circuiting the market, the government is shooting itself in the foot and cheating a lot of poorer students out of the opportunity to learn English and make a better life for themselves.

[londo]

I'm a little more optimistic than some, I do believe things are going to get worse before they get better, but I'll keep battling on, not just because I have a family and business here but because of two points:
1. the system here has always been based on National Interests first, political ideology second - starting from the great, little man himself and if it had not been for some realpolitikt from the allies just after WW11, things would have been very different...my enemy's enemy is my friend. Those in power now need this facade to keep power, but they know it's not sustainable in the long term, no friends or enemies left, just the global marketplace, like it or not. The new generation don't remember the long struggle, were educated very often in the West (and I include Eastern block countries in this generalisation) and know they have to perform to take and keep power ...and not only by how many medals they have.
2. The younger generations ARE starting to question the status quo, they don't want ideology, revolution or any sort of 'ism's , they want a house, business, a lexus and an MBA. If anything is perceived as blocking or delaying these aspirations, they will vote with their feet and go elsewhere. If they are prevented from going by an authoritarian reaction, the VK won't send their money home, investors won't come and VN is put back 20 years. The genie is out of the bottle and in time we will see the three wishes granted.

[londo]

An update from the 'other' site. it seems the '3 marched out by police' episode happened 3 months ago during the post-tet warning tour (as I described in a previous post) around companies known to be employing foreigners. 2-3 foreign-owned schools in Hanoi had similar experiences and can be categorized as a warning shot across the bows. Knowing this I think we can redimension this news - panic, for now, back to previous 'simmering' levels.