Job Discussion Forums

[Dragonlady]

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[TeresaLopez]

You mean the name of the exam? It's ENLACE. I am not a big fan of standardized testing myself, I know when I was teaching in the US a number of schools spend a week before the test pretty much going over what was going to be on the test. And some kids are just better at tests than others. But it is interesting to see how schools do. I haven't looked at it from this perspective, but I think it would be interesting to see if there is a corelation between schools being in nice areas and kids test scores. Of course, then one would have to wonder if it was just the schools, or if being from a more educated familiy in general made a difference. Or if the teacers "coached" the kids.

[dixie]

From what I know, 'schools in nice areas' has nothing to do with it.

I work at a really nice school (although not in a great area!), which is private, and our kids do not tend to do well. Why? They learn in English from the day they enter. We are not bilingual but immersion. And so, while the kids might know the information presented to them, they do not always have the language do comprehend the question and/or respond.

I've also heard the rumour that the results are skewed so that the public schools look better than their private counterparts. One of my kiddies has an other brother who was told that he was not going to win a scholarship or be identified for having the best score simply because he attended a private school. Instead, the praise and reward went to a public school student.

[TeresaLopez]

Yeah, that is nuts. And having nieces and nephews in public schools I am not too impressed. One of my nieces often asks for help with her English homework, and I sometimes can't figure out what the teacher even wants her English is so bad. Plus, most of the assignments are useless, like translating a recipe. She is in 8th year, has had English for 5 years and basically knows nothing. One of my nephews goes to a private school, an from what I have seen he is getting an education that is far superior to the public school offerings.

[FreddyM]

My school (private) tends to be pretty well in the rankings and they like to boast about it. But I wouldn't put too much importance to it. I've seen how they obtain those results and it's pretty ludicrous. When I first started working there and saw those big results I had to really wonder to myself, THIS is one of the best schools in the country? Good lord, the whole country is in trouble if that is really the case. The kids are a mess and don't take learning very seriously, there's cheating run amuck, and all the school administration cares about is looking good in the final rankings.

[TeresaLopez]

[jaimem-g]

This is a little off the track of rankings but supports Teresa's last comment.
This is an recent article fromThe Electronic Journal for English as a Second Language December 2009 � Volume 13, Number 3
Strategic Management of ELT in Public Educational Systems: Trying to Reduce Failure, Increase Success
Paul Davies
Universidad Aut�noma de Tlaxcala, Mexico
This is the abstract:

English as a foreign/second language teaching (ELT) is notably successful in some national public educational systems and unsuccessful in others. Holland, Singapore and Sweden are outstanding examples of great success in the strategic management of ELT in their public educational systems. General failures abound, particularly in countries that rank well below Holland, Singapore and Sweden socio-economically. The focus of this article is on the English language situation in Mexico, one of those countries, and representative of most of Latin America and other parts of the developing world. After providing evidence that the results of ELT in the Mexican public educational system are indeed generally extremely poor, the article addresses two main questions: Why is that so? How could that general failure be shifted to significant success? Two alternative responses to the general failure of ELT in the Mexican public educational system are suggested. They might be worth considering for some other countries� public educational system ELT also.

Interesting, eh? The whole article is a good read. The link is www.tesl-ej.org/pdf/ej51/a2.pdf

[mejms]

The bottom line is that education is a business here. Of course, education, to some extent, is a business everywhere, but not like it is in Mexico. Public schools are for the most part and at best shoddy. 40-50 kids in a classroom?

So private schools offer small groups of 25 students and get away with charging exorbitant tuition and abusive enrollment fees EVERY YEAR for returning students and newcomers alike.

I have got to known quite a number of colegios in the city as I've gone looking for my son. Costs are jaw-dropping and quality is disappointing. Parents don't seem to blink an eye. I find that a lot of where they send their kids is based on pretense and looking good rather than investing in education. Parents of kindergarten kids have bumper stickers just like parents of university students do in the US. I mean, really? It's just kindergarten. They've got a long way to go. And there are so many, many colegios in the area, claiming top ENLACE scores and bilingual, bicultural education. Why does the bottom fall out when it comes to universities? Let's face it, there aren't too many top university in Mexico.

In Mexico education is viewed as a paid privilege rather than a right.

[jaimem-g]

Of course that attitude is present to some degree in the US and other countries. But more so in Mexico and (I'm getting the impression) the D.F. in particular. I'm still wondering if it's very much different in Washington, D.C.

How is the pay for private school teachers in those expensive bilingual schools?

I suppose the market for good EFL teachers will not diminish - unless Chinese becomes the new global language .

[TeresaLopez]

I was interviewing for a job in a very upper crust school, like nothing I have seen ANYWHERE, not in the US, not in Mexico. They pay was around 30,000 pesos a month, plus a great benefit package. They always seem to be looking for teachers, so I think you earn it. The couple of interactions I had with kids were not real positive.

[Guy Courchesne]

[jaimem-g]

I know that's excellent pay by Mexican standards. What did they charge for tuition? and what was the location? Accounting for the turnover: did they let teachers go a lot or did they just quit. If you don't mind my asking, was this the place that didn't want to see your qualifications?

I've worked on accreditation teams for the Western Association of Schools and Colleges for several years (doing adult schools only)and have heard about a Catholic school like that in Mexicali that is accredited by this US agency. WASC has special teams that do parroquial schools and they compare it with the best Catholic schools in the US and it's bilingual! I've never seen it, but it is supposed to be something you'd never expect there...and they don't pay their teachers a lot.

On the note of testing - I have volunteered a lot at my daughter's elementary school in Mecca, Calif. a lot this past year. They are now preparing for the tests EVERY DAY ALL YEAR LONG. The schools in the area are 95-99% Hispanic - families are mostly from Michoacan, Guanajuato, Jalisco and Oaxaca with a sprinkling from all over and Central America. The principals are all going nuts because they can lose their jobs over low test scores and they they keep raising the acceptable standard each year. (Of course the salaries in CA are great in comparison to Mexico.)

[Dragonlady]

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[FreddyM]

I really do wonder if a lot of these private schools, especially the religious ones (and especially Catholic) have all these accreditations, follow all these strict guidelines, etc. merely for show. My own place of employment has won tons of international awards for educational excellence, ranks highly in ENLACE, promotes and sells this high academic quality....and yet, once you are there all I see is a mess, most things are done for show, a lot of the teachers aren't that qualified, especially the foreign English teachers. Discipline is erratic, pay for teachers varies wildly (superficial qualities seem to be more valued than actual skills and competence) and.....well, I could go on and on.....

As for these high-stakes testing, I used to teach in the US also at a low-income public school with a mostly immigrant population, and it too did really well on the rankings, was considered one of the best schools in the state for its ability to prepare students despite their underprivileged backgrounds. And how'd they do it? Teaching to the test, drilling, and mock testing the ENTIRE year. The school also won tons of awards for academic excellence, but I thought the whole thing was a joke. If you gave the kids any kind of a challenging problem to solve that was not in the test format they failed miserably.

I have wondered, is there any such thing as a good school?

[Guy Courchesne]

I was going to mention your school Freddy, in this thread...you nailed it though.

Your school has a connection to Utah does it not? Does your school get any oversight from the American systems there or are they connected only loosely?