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razorhideki
Joined: 19 Jan 2010
Posts: 78
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 Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:56 am Post subject: |
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"government's lack of regulation"? Yep.
"unscrupulous employers taking advantage"? You betcha, baby.
But as the old adage goes...you can only be a victim if you allow yourself to be one.
Take the indentured servitude salary & conditions and ... come back here in 6 mos. to tell us how it's going.
Thanks to hordes of eager beavers like yourself, not only will salaries & benefits drop into the gutter even more, but JET(the only decent way to get a job in Japan for 90% of applicants)will be gone within a decade. |
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extradross
Joined: 23 Apr 2010
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| And you have to be seriously desperate 'eager beaver' to go work for a company/school that you yourself have identified as 'unscrupulous'! How can the experienced/qualified/ veterans show much optimism or hope for the future of EFL in Japan when there are so many newcomers willing to be exploited for the sake of being here? |
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OneJoelFifty
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| Woe is me! What have I let myself in for... May as well just pack up and go home, I'll be on the street in a couple of months after all. Or maybe just clinically depressed. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| OneJoelFifty wrote: |
| I can appreciate the sentiment. But surely the problem stems from the government's lack of regulation over the industry and unscrupulous employers taking advantage wherever they can. |
Uh, yeah. No disagreements there. So?
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| It seems to me as though you, Glenski and other experienced teachers have lost all hope that any positive widespread changes will be made, and instead choose to focus your frustrations on rookie teachers that really only have a responsibility to themselves. |
Oh, please! Frustrations? You make it seem like I'm petulantly stomping my feet.
I just tell it like it is. Many on these forums just plain don't like it. They want to hear they have a huge chance of landing a marvelous job with lots of free time and great pay. I'm not going to say anything of the sort.
Some people frown upon people like me who keep raising the opposite side of the coin whenever someone else has only good things to say about situations (yes, even about low pay and how you seem to perceive it). Sorry, but a balance must be shown.
Don't like low pay? Don't come here, or be more prepared than most. I don't have a background in EFL, so I at least got some certification and language training. I was fortunate enough to have been in Japan before under different circumstances, though, and after a lot of preparations, I got a job with typical pay, atypical paid rent and airfare, and Sat/Sun off. That lasted 3.5 years, and I moved on to greener pastures. You make your own breaks here.
Is the situation for EFL teachers depressing? Heck yes! Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying. Am I supposed to dress that up somehow? Heck no!
Will "widespread changes" be made in Japan? Not in the near future. Do you believe otherwise, Joel? If so, please give us some insight as to why you think so. I've been here since 1998, gone through eikaiwa, private HS, private lessons, and university work. I've seen a new prime minister practically every year, and the educational policy changes that go along with them. No real reason to expect "widespread changes" as long as the government keeps a revolving door on the education Minister, don't you think?
Kids went to school every other Saturday pretty much as a standard rule. Then, due to juvenile crime, that changed to give them more time at home with their loving caring parents, but it flipflopped back when the parents said their kids lost education necessary to get into good colleges.
Japan has been talking about putting English into elementary school for decades now, despite the fact that many of its competitors (e.g., Korea) have done so decades ago.
The government made a long-range plan to include English in the schools, yet it was just lip service.
Unions work hard to make changes for the better happen, but it's a slow process for many reasons, not the least of which is the fact that AFAIK the law here doesn't operate under the same principles as we're used to. That is, precedents don't really apply, and foreigners are not treated as equals. As Gwen Gallagher how she feels about being kicked out of her university job after spending 14 years there, and the reason was that she was no longer as foreign as she was the day she got in the door. Forget the fact that she was probably a better teacher than then.
Am I (and others) focusing "frustrations on rookie teachers that really only have a responsibility to themselves"? Well, I focus on them a lot, yes, but not with any sense of frustration that you seem to think I have. I've been dispensing advice and collecting info for about 13 years now. I think I know a bit more than when I started, yet I still recall when I set out to teach here. Hardly any Internet sites. The ESL Cafe was not in this lovely sophisticated format that you see now, either. Darned few Internet ads for jobs. The major players were the "big four", half of which are now gone (NOVA, GEOS), oh, and JET, of course. I try to focus on newcomers just so they benefit from my experience and knowledge and can have a better understanding of what they are getting into than I did. There's a lot of misinformation out there.
Change doesn't happen fast in Japan. It's the way the culture is. Anyone who doesn't believe that is not well informed.
Is it all doom and gloom? No.
Immigration is talking about making a 5-year visa (for people who actually show some as-yet-undefined fluency in Japanese).
The union has made some inroads into the ALT dispatchers.
The reentry permit system may soon be abolished.
A bill to link visa renewal to national health insurance was stopped.
More little victories happen, but they, too, take time. |
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OneJoelFifty
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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Glenski, I know where you're coming from, but I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not for a moment suggesting that things are all sunshine and light as far as the overall situation is concerned. I think you largely do a good and important job of stressing the difficulties that might be faced, and outlining the reality that's opposed to the 'Japanese dream' some people have in their minds. I'm not for a moment suggesting that you go out of your way to sugar-coat anything. Nor do I think there are likely to be any widespread changes, I wasn't suggesting there will be.
I feel compelled to argue with you when you go beyond stating the facts and figures as you see them and state outright "don't take that job," especially when it's a job I've taken and I feel is going fairly well (fingers crossed it continues). You mention a balance, I think you've tipped slightly too far in one direction this time around so I'm doing my bit for the other side of the coin.
Yes, 'some people' and 'many on these forums' etc etc, but that's not me and it's not this thread. I'm talking about a specific salary working for a specific company, both of which I have first hand experience of.
extradross, re: unscrupulous employers. That's dispatch companies all round. I made an informed decision to work for one. But the workings of the overall system don't necessarily mean that all dispatch company staff share the same attitudes as their employers. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| OneJoelFifty wrote: |
| I feel compelled to argue with you when you go beyond stating the facts and figures as you see them and state outright "don't take that job," especially when it's a job I've taken and I feel is going fairly well (fingers crossed it continues). |
I'm sorry if I stepped on your toes over that, but whether the job goes well or not, the simple fact is, 205,000 yen/month is seriously less than what the standard has been for decades. If people continue to take such low salaries, even if the job itself is good, then what does that say about the future of the market?
People want to come to Japan for various reasons, not the least of which is to enjoy themselves after work hours. A salary like that (and some employers offer even less!) is not going to give one much of a chance to get out and enjoy nearly as much as an additional 50,000 yen/month. Mind you, when I refer to a 250,000 yen/month salary, that's not just for us foreigners. Remember that we are supposed to be paid as much as a Japanese person doing an equivalent job, and 250K was considered precisely that for a long, long time. Are the Japanese accepting lower pay just because employers know they will take it? Would they be happy if that happened to them? Many live with their parents and can save on expenses, but by and large we foreigners don't have that luxury, and a large percentage of newcomers are fresh out of college with steep bills to pay (not that an employer has to consider that in stating a wage, but it is just another fact to consider for newcomers who want to get their feet wet here, not to mention do some sightseeing and partying, which can't usually be said for the locals).
| Quote: |
| You mention a balance, I think you've tipped slightly too far in one direction this time around so I'm doing my bit for the other side of the coin. |
I hope you have an enjoyable experience with as few problems as possible. But I still just don't see your point, other than to say take anything you can get.
gittelbug started this thread with the following comment and asked for advice:
the competition is so high I figured a year with a low salary is a small price to pay to gain the experience I need.
I am going to assume you feel similarly. Perhaps it is a small price to pay for the individual. That is a personal choice based on each person's circumstances. The best that respondents can do is to point out the pros and cons and to try assessing just what those circumstances are in order to make a fair evaluation.
You yourself wrote:
Through perseverance (and having made a couple of Japanese-speaking friends!) I've managed to be relatively self-sufficient in terms of asking for stuff from my company, so I can't comment on what experience you might have if you're someone that's going to need a lot of help settling in.
Good for you (sincerely!), and I hope that most newcomers are like that, but the truth is many are not, and trying to survive on 205K is not as easy as some make it out to be. (And I see you have added that "Not sure I'll be saving much but then that wasn't my intention coming over here anyway. "). Keeping one's head above water is one thing, but when the guy in the next dispatch or eikaiwa is making 600,000 yen more per year (or has 50,000 yen more to play with during a month), some people might look at the situation differently, especially after having been here a while. It's not that hard to make up the difference with private lessons, but that just means less free time on one's hands.
You also wrote:
The most important thing is just having the money to get settled in before the first paycheck, by the time that comes in you should have a good idea of how you can keep costs down if that's what you're set on doing.
Good advice. The only niggling problem is that many younger newcomers have little clue on how to keep those costs down (which was one reason I started a thread a few years ago on "cheapskates"). Why struggle if one doesn't have to?
Obviously we disagree on this other point you made:
this advice [not accepting low wages] is partly motivated by the more experienced teachers not wanting the overall salary levels to drop further, but as a new teacher that should be the last thing anyone considers.
I've already responded to that, but I would be interested to know your feelings (and that of others) after you've been here 3-4 years. Please keep us posted, everyone.
Lastly, you wrote:
I don't really see how people can complain about low pay when they knew what the pay was when they signed the contract! Or rather, I can see why they might complain, it's human nature but they have only themselves to blame.
Yes, they have only themselves to blame, but when they come to forums like this, I feel obligated to point out certain realities so that they don't have a reason to blame. The desperate and naive will keep coming here. People like me post to show them certain realities so that they can make informed decisions. After that, yes, they have only themselves to blame, but their decision to take poor working conditions will continue to affect others, so I see the need to keep pointing out certain things, and that may include telling people not to take a position. |
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OneJoelFifty
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
gittelbug started this thread with the following comment and asked for advice:
the competition is so high I figured a year with a low salary is a small price to pay to gain the experience I need.
I am going to assume you feel similarly. Perhaps it is a small price to pay for the individual. That is a personal choice based on each person's circumstances. The best that respondents can do is to point out the pros and cons and to try assessing just what those circumstances are in order to make a fair evaluation. |
Indeed I do, this is an interesting (and so far fun and rewarding) experience for me and I'll be taking it a year at a time.
I think you're on the money with that last sentence, which is why it's surprising that you chose to tell someone not to take the job based on salary alone, knowing nothing of the other details involved. My point is not 'take anything you can get' it's 'assess each situation on its own merits.'
Thanks for the well-wishes. I think this conversation has run its course so I won't keep harping on about it :> |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| OneJoelFifty wrote: |
| Glenski wrote: |
gittelbug started this thread with the following comment and asked for advice:
the competition is so high I figured a year with a low salary is a small price to pay to gain the experience I need.
I am going to assume you feel similarly. Perhaps it is a small price to pay for the individual. That is a personal choice based on each person's circumstances. The best that respondents can do is to point out the pros and cons and to try assessing just what those circumstances are in order to make a fair evaluation. |
I think you're on the money with that last sentence, which is why it's surprising that you chose to tell someone not to take the job based on salary alone, knowing nothing of the other details involved. |
I have been criticized for giving responses in the form of asking the OP more questions.
Now you're saying I didn't ask enough.
It behooves the OPs to tell us as much as they can. Whenever I point that out (especially in the newcomer forum, where there is a policy for that), I get slagged.
I guess I can't win here. Sheesh. |
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dove
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 271
Location: USA/Japan
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| Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:47 am Post subject: |
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Salaries and bonuses are being cut in many Japanese job sectors, not just in the English teaching world. I don't think it's fair to blame the drop in teaching salaries on the newcomer willing to accept such a low salary. It's kind of like there's no choice, just like there's no choice that a so-called freshman engineer at, say, SONY is going to receive a low first-year bonus.
Still, 200,000 yen is quite low for an expensive country like Japan. Before taking a job with a low salary you really need to figure out a budget. You need to know how much you will be paying for rent, for taxes, for insurance, for commuting (this is usually covered by the employer). Is school lunch included? Is there a town hall or international center to take free Japanese lessons? You also need to ask yourself how much you want to travel (domestically and internationally), how much drinking means to you (you wouldn't believe the damage the World Cup caused to many of my friends' wallets). How much are your student loans? Credit card repayments? Are you willing to cook your own food?
Are you willing to just break even?
Does your employer allow you to take other jobs? Are you willing to risk it if you are not allowed to? I know I would definitely be looking for a supplement to my income if I were faced with a low salary job. Saving money is a priority for me. For some, just being in Japan is a priority. To each his own. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:25 am Post subject: |
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| dove wrote: |
| Salaries and bonuses are being cut in many Japanese job sectors, not just in the English teaching world. |
True, but how many of those other jobs have been held constant at 250K for the past 20 years? Not many, I would think.
| Quote: |
| I don't think it's fair to blame the drop in teaching salaries on the newcomer willing to accept such a low salary. |
They are not solely to blame, no. But, keep accepting the low wages, and it becomes standard. I say, just say no.
| Quote: |
| It's kind of like there's no choice, just like there's no choice that a so-called freshman engineer at, say, SONY is going to receive a low first-year bonus. |
Apples and oranges. |
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extradross
Joined: 23 Apr 2010
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| How about adding this. Ok, so I accept an entry level position that pays rather low-say 200 thou per month. It's going to be a bit of a struggle for the 1st year. What are my chances of improving my position with regards to salary for my 2nd year? That's the real point here as I see it, many of us start of in countries in entry level positions-[EF in China/Indonesia for example] and once established find better positions for our 2nd year-what are the options open to dispatch company ALT's after they complete their first year, more of the same? Crap pay and a frugal lifestyle? Or is there a light at the end of the tunnel? Say for example-direct hire? |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| extradross wrote: |
| How about adding this. Ok, so I accept an entry level position that pays rather low-say 200 thou per month. It's going to be a bit of a struggle for the 1st year. What are my chances of improving my position with regards to salary for my 2nd year? |
Nobody can quote you odds, not even Jimmy the Greek.
Look, stay a year, and you have a year of Japan teaching experience under your belt, and it looks better than Korea/China/etc. experience to most employers here. That's about all -- it looks better. It's still just 12 months of experience.
Want to improve your odds?
Network with other teachers.
Join a professional organization.
Get some additional training.
Publish.
Look at ads every day.
Fix your resume up better than when it got you the 200K job.
Take on PT work to add to the resume.
Is this a guarantee of better jobs? Not really, but what else do you expect to do?
| Quote: |
| what are the options open to dispatch company ALT's after they complete their first year, more of the same? |
Pretty much more of the same. Ever see the Star Wars cloned stormtroopers? That's a hint.
| Quote: |
| Crap pay and a frugal lifestyle? Or is there a light at the end of the tunnel? Say for example-direct hire? |
Yeah, direct hire is a possibility, but a fairly rare one.
What's more, realize what you are getting into with direct hire. It may not be what you imagine. Could actually be more work! |
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extradross
Joined: 23 Apr 2010
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| I suppose to work effectively as an 'direct hire' ALT one would have to be able to work beyond the limits of an ALT's responsibilities-deal with homeroom duties, share some of the admin workload of the 'regular' teacher, contacting parents etc.....all of this would require good command of the Japanese spoken/written language. Probably eliminates many of the ALT's working in Japan. |
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Bread
Joined: 24 May 2009
Posts: 318
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| extradross wrote: |
| I suppose to work effectively as an 'direct hire' ALT one would have to be able to work beyond the limits of an ALT's responsibilities-deal with homeroom duties, share some of the admin workload of the 'regular' teacher, contacting parents etc.....all of this would require good command of the Japanese spoken/written language. Probably eliminates many of the ALT's working in Japan. |
Well, no, you can't have a homeroom without a Japanese teaching certificate, which is a much bigger barrier than Japanese language ability. And at that point you wouldn't be an ALT anymore, you would just be a teacher. |
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ssjup81
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 664
Location: Adachi-ku, Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| Wouldn't the responsibilities be pretty much the same, though, with a direct-hire ALT, depending on the school and its English Teachers? Aside from probably having more work hours and more classes, seems that that wouldn't change the way the teachers you work with do things, if that makes sense. |
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