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[BillCowher]

From a Philippine news source...The World Health Organization reported in 2009 that Saudi Arabia has the world�s highest number of deaths from road accidents, which make up the country�s principal cause of death particularly among adult males. - RJAB Jr., GMANews.TV

[trapezius]

Highest per capita perhaps, but no way highest in number.

[Asda]

No, I've heard it's the highest in raw numbers as well...over 6000 per year - more than many a war!!!

[johnslat]

Well, not according to this website, even per capita:


This table is derived from the Global Status Report on Road Safety 2009, published by the World Health Organization, with financial support from Bloomberg Philanthropies. For explanations, please refer to the notes below the table.
Road Traffic Deaths per 100,000 Population
Country Ranks, Highest to Lowest Score in 2009

Rate per 100.000 Reported number of
Rank Country population traffic deaths

40 Saudi Arabia 29.0 6358

http://www.photius.com/rankings/road_traffic_deaths_country_rankings_2009.html

or this one:

May 19, 2009�"Iran has the highest death rate resulting from road traffic accidents of any other country in the world, according to new research from the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation (IHME) at the University of Washington. More than 30,000 people die annually in Iran from road traffic injuries, a rate of 44 people per 100,000 population in 2002, compared to 26 per 100,000 population in the Eastern Mediterranean Region, and 29 in Sub-Saharan Africa for the same year. In the United States (US), 19 people in 100,000 population died of road traffic injuries, while in Canada death due to road traffic injuries was nine per 100,000 population and in Germany it was six per 100,000. The average death rate globally for road traffic injuries in 2002 was 19 deaths per 100,000."

http://www.healthmetricsandevaluation.org/resources/news/2009/irans_death_rate_highlights_0509.html

Regards,
John

[Sheikh N Bake]

Well unfortunately the NY Times reports just today that the number of traffic deaths in the US "hovers around 37,000." There are 250 million registered vehicles in the U.S; this includes 32% heavy trucks, heavy tractors, etc. Yale University reports a drop of 4 million vehicles in 2009 and declines will continue because there are 117 cars for every 100 licensed owners--obviously a saturation piont has been reached. Many factors such as recession, improved public transport, high debt, etc. will help.

Apparently they can't take an actual count of vehicles in Saudi Arabia, so some Arab mathemetician has estimated (if I can read his paper correctly) about 2.3 million operating vehicles presently. At 6,000 deaths, that's one death per 383 vehicles a year in Saudi compared to one death per 6,756 vehicles in the US. And yes, Europe, Japan and Korea show fewer deaths proportionately than the U.S.

I suppose traffic deaths include pedestrians run over, but I still find the number of traffic deaths compared to the number of vehicles on the road interesting. That means one out of 380+ vehicles on Saudi roads will become involved in a death. As for injured...the number must be ten times higher at least.

[veiledsentiments]

[trapezius]

[Stephen Jones]

Figures on the link you give don't compute, John. The total number of reported deaths in many cases has no relation with the deaths per capita figure.

[isabel]

Look, there are enough deaths that it has impacted the marriage rate- having killed off too many young men. Argue the stats, but the truth is tragic.

I think it is a peculiarly Saudi/Gulf problem. Money, fast cars, cheap gas, good roads, and a life of sheer utter boredom and purposelessness (no jobs, so no wives, no place to go, and nothing to do). That, coupled with a faith that is utterly fatalistic.

I mentioned accidents in one of my classes the other day, and one of my student's best friend had died the day before. Another student had lost a brother and mother to an accident. Most students have these stories. It is really tragic.

If you think about it, before oil and urbanization, most of these kids had responsibilities in their villages before they were teens. Goats and camels and children kept them busy. Now they have modern lives with none of the modern diversions, except fast cars.

[Grendal]

I really see no point, other than self preservation, in this thread. As long as they don't hit me or my friends and family I really don't give a *$%@. They can all go to their beloved Jannet and live forevermore with their 40 wives. That's what they want, that's what they'll get.

Grendal

[isabel]

[Grendal]

We have a saying in Turkish. "Deveden inmish arabaya binmish". Loosly translated, "Off a camel and into a car".

That about sums up my philanthropistic tendencies on Saudi traffic culture.

Grendal

ps. well I guess if you look at it, yes a bit harsh but they deserve it.
pps. if only women could drive I believe fatalities would decrease. Maybe soon. heard that before
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/saudiarabia/7669086/Photo-of-Saudi-king-with-women-could-lead-to-reform.html

[ummkhadija]

Isabel

[johnslat]

Dear UmmKhadija,

So many religions - including Christianity, by the way - have struggled with the concepts of predestination (fatalism) versus free will.

"Although comparable in broad terms, the differences between Christian and Islamic ideas of predestination are complex. These differences are due to the distinctives of each faith's belief system. In broad terms, the doctrine of predestination refers to inevitability as a general principle, and usually more particularly refers to the exercise of God's will as it relates to the future of members of the human race, considered either as groups or as individuals, with special concern for issues of human responsibility as it relates to the sovereignty of God. Predestination always involves issues of the Creator's personality and will; and consequently, the different versions of the doctrine of predestination go hand in hand with appropriately different conceptions of the contribution any creature is able to make toward its own present condition, or future destiny."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination#Islam_and_Christianity

"In Christian theology, the doctrine that the ultimate salvation or damnation of each human individual has been ordained beforehand. A source of endless dispute, the doctrine has been interpreted in many ways. It was first fully articulated by Augustine during his controversy with the Pelagians, who upheld the doctrine of free will. The Protestant Reformers Luther and Calvin defended the doctrine, though in varying degrees. Jakob Arminius (1560�1609) rejected the Calvinist view of predestination, and argued that the divine sovereignty was compatible with human free will. According to the teaching of Islam, human beings cannot ultimately oppose God's will, but they have the freedom to accept or reject God, along with the fateful consequences incurred by the latter choice."


http://encyclopedia.stateuniversity.com/pages/17815/predestination.html#ixzz0tPQhXnxk

There have been and probably always will be those who interpret the Sacred Books differently. Just as there have been Christians who incline towards or beleive totally in predestination, so too, there have been Moslems who do the same.

"More commonly, Middle Eastern analysts point to the fatalism inculcated by Islam . Though there, as usual contradictory statements in the Koran on this subject, in the end it was the predestination doctrine that prevailed in Islam .Here are some quotes from the Koran that have led to a kind of fatalism within Islam :

liv. 49 All things have been created after fixed decree.

iii.139 No one can die except by God�s permission according to the book that fixes the term of life.

lxxxvii.2 The Lord has created and balanced all things and has fixed their destinies and guided them..

viii.17 God killed them, and those shafts were God�s, not yours.

ix.51 By no means can anything befall us but what God has destined for us.

( See also, xiii.30 ; xiv.4 ; xviii.101 ; xxxii.32 xlv.26 ; lvii.22 )

Kanan Makiya, the Iraqi political thinker, sees, "extreme fatalism �that may be a characteristic of Islamic culture generally � as a key explanation for conspiracy theories. In his view, this world view undermines the notion of man as responsible to himself. Similarly, Homa Katouzian traces conspiracy theories to an � unimaginable fatalism;" and Jahangir Amuzegar ascribes them to a "fatalistic streak." Others point to the Shi�a tradition of taqiya ( dissimulation � for self-protection and the safeguarding of faith ; and finally some single out the Shia tradition of martyrdom (shihada) that causes Iranians to externalize evil, to seek to put the responsibility for their failures, misdeeds, blunders onto others plotting against them."

http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm?frm=3766&sec_id=3766

Although I personally believe that the message of both Islam and of Christianity is that of free will, I must admit that during my twenty-two years of living in Muslim countries (Saudi Arabia, Indonesia and Iran,) it was my experience that there was more of a tendency towards "fatalism" in Saudi Arabia than in any other place I've lived.

Regards,
John

[sheikher]

Oh johnslat --

Serendipitously, moments after watching Spain win the World Cup, this surfed discovery of last week's Radio National (Australia) interview with Matthew Gray, Centre for Arab and Islamic Studies at the Australian National University.

Q: First, a report from the street, just that really puts us into the moment, shall we say. Tell us about the brand, spanking new World Cup based conspiracy theories that are circulating in Egypt.

MG: Yes well this is today's conspiracy theory if you like, that in fact there's several of these things which is what makes them so wonderful to study, is you've actually got the same event, the World Cup creating different conspiracy theories. Now one side of this, you've got people from the classic left I suppose, with a developing world attitude that are saying really the World Cup is a first world sport, it's designed as a privilege for the wealthy, it's not designed for poor countries to ever win. The Arab world never does very well at it because really the whole thing is sort of a developed world plot. And I suppose the latest results would sort of confirm that. They'd say 'Well you know, of course Ghana was never going to get through to the semi-finals, come on'.

...In America, in China, in other places like that where you have a lot of conspiracy theories as well, you also have an attitude: well you know, 'Let's roll up our sleeves, get on with it and fix the problem'. Whereas in the Arab world you often have something that's saying, well what's the point in trying to fix this problem? Because it's a plot against us. If we try to fix it, we'll be defeated really, that's our history, that's the way it's always been.

Further insights? Listen (or read the transcript):

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/saturdayextra/stories/2010/2943472.htm

Alternative perspective at:

http://www.danielpipes.org/214/dealing-with-middle-eastern-conspiracy-theories