Job Discussion Forums

[LeopoldBloom]

This is just a word to the wise for those considering teaching in China today who may have done it years ago. I taught in China ten years ago, then again five years ago, and returned again last year. So much has changed-- anyone who's been there will tell you that-- and a lot of those changes have been to the disadvantage to teachers.

You must understand that as a teacher in China today you have no rights to take your employer on about pay issues or whatever may come up between the two of you. None, zero, zilch, nada. You generally have the right to leave the country if you are unhappy but that's it. Keep that in mind. Chinese employers are well aware of the power they have and a great many universities and colleges routinely pay very late and/or skip on certain pay issues if they can satisfactorily rationalize that for themselves.

I'm speaking from first-hand experience at a university and talking with all others working at them. Prior to 2006 teachers still had a lot of power in unhappy situations because they could fairly easily find work at a new school. Not so today. Almost all Chinese employers require a recommendation from your last employer to hire you. Think about this: it's a system that says the Chinese employer is always right and honest which is hardly true and even if it were; any employer given so much power would tend to become less right and honest. Just human nature.

Based on the current situation I would strongly recommend potential teachers steer clear of any teaching in China post. Whether you're from America, Europe or wherever it be, you're probably from a country where people have toiled for one hundred years or more for worker's rights. Don't come to China to teach today because you'll be giving all those rights up.

[hot_water_hillbilly]

You seem to have either personal and/or professional issues and refuse to spell out the full story.

More than one of us have first hand knowledge about the fact that there are indeed ways of getting what's yours. It's those without the will or personality to get it done that hinders the successful outcome.

You're coming here and trying to warn people? Really?

"The sky is falling" comes to mind as does "wolf, wolf!"

Maybe you should look inward, because the system is not as screwed up as it is for you.

[Susie]

Do you think that foreign teachers should form an official Teachers' Union to ensure their workers' rights or do you just think that "boycotting" China because of zero workers' rights is the way forward, or some other idea?

[LeopoldBloom]

I don't know the answer, Susie. I think for those already in China who like their situation and want to stay and yet recognize that the status quo makes teachers very vulnerable to abuse, forming some kind of union is an excellent idea. But could such a union have any power? On the other hand for teachers considering coming over understanding the reality of the current working situation is important. You need to reconsider before flying over to China for work.

And I don't agree with what you wrote, hotwaterbilly. Sure, there are ways and means with will and personality in any situation. You can find many such accounts in US 19th century working history or even mid 20th century and sometimes even today; we keep trying to make things fairer. Just that on the whole, ways and means and will and personality don't work very well for the average worker in individual circumstances. When it comes to a tug-o-war on any working issue in China, one side has all the pull. And not everyone or even many people, have the will of personality as a Rosa Parks or Jimmy Hoffa or whatever and quite a few people would want to reconsider taking a job in a country where they would not have any employee rights.

Some working situations just work out well anywhere and everywhere. And some don't. Rights for workers are there for those situations where things don't work out so well. They create a balance when it comes to a tug-o-war issue or just when an employer is outright dishonest or unfair, which happens of course too. Right now, based on the status quo, the Chinese employer is always right and fair. (Making it a government regulation that any teacher who has taught in China have a recommendation from their last employer assumes this absolutely.)

China has marketed heavily to bring teachers over to teach their children and adults English but it probably hasn't marketed the reality of worker rights for foreign teachers at the moment. And too many people are so excited about teaching and traveling that they forget that work is work and if you come to China to teach and work, you'll be working and dealing with the working issues as you would in your own country or anywhere. They have a right to know that yes, maybe you'll have a good working experience and an honest employer-- and maybe you won't. If you do, great. And if you don't, good luck because you have no rights beyond doing your best Marlon Brando or whatever persona and will you want to work up and put forth. And yes sometimes that can work too. But do you teachers really want to sign into a deal like this? Maybe. Are teachers considering working in China really aware of this situation? Maybe.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying don't teach in China. I'm saying think about it carefully and understand the reality of teaching in China today.

[mike w]

[kukiv]

[nickpellatt]

Everyone is normally quick to tell me on the forums (not so much this one in fairness) that I have worked in the lowest of the low, the 'suck em up and spit em out' places ... and I have never had a problem either. I've worked for five employers now (3 in China) and all none would be classed as desirable or prestigious by most posters.

I've never been deducted salary for a mysterious reason, been stiffed over schedules, been shafted by students, and been mistreated by an employer. Perhaps I need to take a better class of job and then I will suffer some of the common issues claimed LOL

Of course my experience is very limited, but in that limited experience, I have seen a lot of teachers, especially in summer camps. Perhaps I am judgemental, but I do believe the vast majority have no teaching aptitude, a smaller percentage have an unreal sense of entitlement, and perhaps 10-20% of people I have met and worked with have no tolerance or patience for living abroad. I do think that with so many people clearly unsuited to the lifestyle and the job, its no wonder there are so many complaints and things that go wrong.

[mike w]

Kukiv,

Yes my friend, in one way you are right. My current position (over 4 years now) is corporate training in a Chinese multinational. But to get here, I went through the gambit of the 'EFL meat market". Everything from private language mill, through state run middle school, second tier university, and top grade university, private students, et al. So, once upon a time, I too was an ordinary China FT (20 classroom hours for RMB3,000 a month, in Beijing)

So, my experience is very broad and covers probably 90% of the general issues regularly covered here.

[struelle]

Things have certainly changed in the last 10 years as the OP said, and I'd agree that it was a better deal for FTs in the past ... personally I'd put my best years as from 2001-2006. Things really took a turn downhill towards the Beijing Olympics time, when in a very general sense, the rules became much stricter all around and they treated foreigners in much the same way as the local Chinese.

This trend of stricter rules, less personal freedom, and more accountability to the boss continues now. For example, it seems commonplace now for employers to demand 'office hours' or 'face time' in the office during spare blocks or when not teaching. Nobody really questions that anymore, whereas 5 years ago they would allow flexibility to, say, head for the bank and do business errands durnig the day when not teaching.

But trends and general patterns can only mean so much, as there is considerable individual variation in a person's China experience. It may be for some they had excellent years here after 2008 and it could be any number of factors for why it was positive. If so, great, and we should recognize that.

I highly second the idea of doing research and planning ahead as much as possible before signing on with an employer. If at all possible, come over here first, ask questions, see the school, live in the area for a few weeks, meet with the teachers, and do a recon trip.

There are many reasons why the employers have so much power these days. Part of it because they are rich, and the economy has greatly benefited rich people in recent years. Relative to the global economy, the Chinese have been doing well, and thus they are confident. Some would say arrogant. Also, China has always had a chronic unemployment problem for the 'masses', and increasingly so, more people from abroad are flocking due to relative poor economic conditions back home.

Based on all this, I would expect trends to continue as they are.

[kukiv]

[nickpellatt]

[LeopoldBloom]

I strongly agree with Struelle's post; way to put it in perspective. I too was here before during the 2000-2006 period and things were a lot better for FT's, hands down, no doubt about it.

And if you put your time in at low level EFL positions fifteen or ten years ago that does not apply to the current situation with EFL in China. Due to the changes in 2006, the current economic conditions both for FT's coming and the much greater wealth of Chinese employers today, it's a totally different game today. Established foreign teachers in China who "put their time in" did so under very different and better circumstances than new teachers would coming over today. And my post is for the would be new teachers, the people considering EFL in general or making a jump from Korea or Japan over to China.

And to address a follow-up point: I love how some people make this out like this the fault of just some derelict 'teachers'. In their opinion a 'good' teacher would never face any problems where basic rights would be of any use. No, no, those hurdles are only encountered by the 80-90% of EFL teachers who aren't good. Come now. This is about a relationship and creating a fairer playing field, something that all professions and society as a working whole try to do. We just know from reams of historical experience that when the playing field isn't at all fair, all to often, people try to cheat and take advantage where they can. Otherwise you should well assume that plenty of good, honest, and capable people will meet manipulative, dishonest folk and be forced to deal. I'm not saying everyone or everywhere, just plenty.

And yes there are poor teachers out there who don't fit the profession and the answer to that problem is not to take all teacher rights away but to use legal and fair means to discipline or get rid of consistently underperforming teachers.

Oh, FYI, my experience was at a university. That really tells you where things are at with teaching in China. You'd expect some level of honesty and decency at a uni but they acted like a low-level language mill throughout. Chisel some Rmb here there, pay salary late usually, find a way to opt out of payments if possible etc. I was pretty amazed. And for now I'm not going to "out" that uni because I'm still seeking for some way to retrieve money the uni owes me. I've so far discovered that basically a 10 year old factory laborer in an American sweat shop one hundred and fifty years ago has as much power as I do in finding a way to have unpaid wages paid to him.

[living&learning]

Me and my foreign colleagues got shafted on our airfares recently. Supposed to get a full 8000, but no, the uni found a way around paying the full amount.

We caught public transport some nights, and we told we were going to be reimbursed for the tickets at the beginning of the year. No, the uni weaseled out on that too.

Asked for a raise with the new contract, no - full stop. No contract resigning bonus, just another 10 month contract (ie. 2 summer months unpaid).

This is a top-tier prestigious uni. And it's my last year with them. If better work comes along (ie. more suitable and less tight) I'll give a month's notice and move on. I'm not one of those noble men who will work to the last day of the contract, then get shafted, no not me.

[Zero]

[kukiv]