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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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 Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| In America, out in public a muslim can wear whatever he or she wants to wear. But in an Islamic republic I cannot wear whatever I want to wear out in public because I would be FORCED to wear hijab. |
Wait... I worked and lived in 4 Muslim countries in the Gulf over a 15 year period and no one ever told me what to wear and I have never worn hijab except when visiting some mosques in some countries. Out of respect I dressed conservatively, but I never covered my head.
So, I'm not sure we are comparing equal things here.
Personally, I think that facial veils should be banned from all classroom situations. I want to see my students' faces, especially in testing situations. This was why they were banned in Oman when I was there. On the streets, I don't see why it should be restricted as some European countries wish to do.
VS |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:18 am Post subject: |
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Well, the bank where I do business here has a "No Hats, No Hoods, No Sunglasses" sign posted on the front door.
Regards,
John |
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helenl
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 1202
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:09 am Post subject: |
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Ah John, but that is for security purposes - when I was in banking halloween was a big deal in my part of the country, but no masks or head coverings were ever allowed for the same reason and entry was refused to any customers who did not remove them before entering.
Sort of like going through airport security, sure you have a boarding pass and have paid your money - but you don't get on the plane til you go through the various machines/screenings.
One can find governmental restrictions on clothing issues anywhere in the world - what I find interesting are the various articles that pop up in the newspapers (usually American) where a muslim lady refuses to either show her picture, or better yet, refuses to allow a picture to be taken for a driver's license etc. without the face covering veil.
Even in Saudi (OK not for a driver's license but for other forms of ID) they have to have a full face photo - however, they usually do have the option of requesting a female police person do the ID check. My students have been very surprised to learn about women in the West trying to exert their "right" not to have a full face photo on their ID.
I also understand a Fatwa has been issued by an Imam in the US about those security machines that can "see through" your clothes at airports - OK, no sweat, go through a "regular" security screening (and if you miss your plane, not my problem) |
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basiltherat
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 952
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:13 am Post subject: |
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Just a point to lessen the tension:
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| Islam is a religion that has been here since the time of Adam and Eve, |
Since religion can often be such a sensitive issue, I wonder why it is that when people express their religious views that they are often stated as fact with no consideration or respect for those who might have different beliefs or views.
It might be more sensitive to insert expressions such as:
We believe ..... or Hindus claim ......... or Some people say .......
Best
Basil  |
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MrScaramanga
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 221
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:00 am Post subject: |
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Each country comes with its own set of cultural traditons, values and language(s). Some countries choose to be secular and to avoid public displays of religious symbols, mostly because of a tumultuous and bloody past of religious wars.
If one chooses to live in such a country, then one must respect the traditions of that country, much in the same way those of us who chose to live in the Gulf dress conservatively out of respect for the local culture and rules. Shariah law applies to all, expats and locals.
I see nothing wrong with a country defending and putting down into law what is - in that country - perceived as a fundamental right for a woman to dress and go as she pleases.
MrS |
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basiltherat
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 952
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:32 am Post subject: |
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Going to live, stay or become a national of any country is, in my view, rather like joining a club.
All clubs have rules and .... if you don't like the rules and are unwilling to adapt then ...... , go and join a different club.
Even when it concerns what one is or isn't permitted to wear.
My tuppenceworth
Best
Basil |
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ummkhadija
Joined: 06 May 2010
Posts: 105
Location: ..The resort city of Saudi Arabia..
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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Basiltherat,
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| I wonder why it is that when people express their religious views that they are often stated as fact with no consideration or respect for those who might have different beliefs or views. |
Where did I cause a disrespect for any other religion? I stated a fact found in the Quran: Al-e-Imran, 3:59
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| The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was |
If you were offended, I am sorry, but as a Muslim, I believe in Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, and many other prophets, that other religions may also believe in. So, if there was something specific that I stated that offended you, that was not my intention.
UmmKhadija |
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basiltherat
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 952
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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No. I was not offended at all. I was just considering how others who don't agree and who have alternative strong views might feel. Just as I am sure you would like people to be sensitive to the beliefs (and they are just that) you hold within your religion.
If it were a political or sport related issue, I don't think it would matter but when it comes to religion I personally think it's best to be especially sensitive to others who may differ.
I was in no way trying to persuade you not to believe in the things you wish to believe in. That is obviously your absolute right.
As I mentioned, I think it would be better to simply give one's view or belief and not make it appear as a case closed.
Anyway, let's agree to disagree then.
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| (this information is) found in the Quran: Al-e-Imran, 3:59 |
I agree. That is definitely a fact.
Best regards
Basil |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| ummkhadija wrote: |
Where did I cause a disrespect for any other religion? I stated a fact found in the Quran: Al-e-Imran, 3:59
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| The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was |
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Where disrespect comes into this is when one makes a claim like this, "Islam is a religion that has been here since the time of Adam and Eve."
Islam appeared with the life of Mohammed. Prior to that similar beliefs were expounded in Judaism and Christianity. Christianity did not and could not have existed before the life of Christ. Just because they shared the beliefs of Judaism doesn't mean that Christianity had been the original.
One of the most offensive beliefs and terms to believing Christians and Jews is the word "revert" which reflects a belief in Islam that everyone is born a Muslim. That is an issue of "faith" not fact, and a line from a book - be it Torah, Bible, or Quran proves nothing but what the writer may have believed and what the reader may choose to believe.
I am surprised that you can not see this point as your posts here have shown you to be a sensible young woman.  Personally I am not a believer in any of the three, but I can understand why it would be somewhat offensive to others when a member of any belief structure makes a comment like that. I can tell you that my Fundamentalist Christian cousins would be highly offended.
VS |
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ummkhadija
Joined: 06 May 2010
Posts: 105
Location: ..The resort city of Saudi Arabia..
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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Dear VS,
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| Islam appeared with the life of Mohammed. |
Well, this is where I would disagree with you. The Arabic word Islam, means submission. I feel very comfortable with Islam and explaining it, however you are correct:
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| Personally I am not a believer in any of the three, but I can understand why it would be somewhat offensive to others when a member of any belief structure makes a comment like that. I can tell you that my Fundamentalist Christian cousins would be highly offended. |
When people feel uncomfortable with certain "faith" based ideologies like you stated:
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| That is an issue of "faith" not fact, and a line from a book - be it Torah, Bible, or Quran proves nothing but what the writer may have believed and what the reader may choose to believe. |
Than problems can arise so next time I will just add that I believe into my messages, since stating otherwise will again make it only a faith based fact; which seems to not hold well. So, I try to stick to my own personal opinions and leave faith based facts out of it.
Thanks
UmmKhadija |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Ummkhadija,
The phrase "faith-based facts" seems, to me, to be an oxymoron. While I can see that faith can be, at least partially, based on facts, I can't see how facts can be based on faith.
"The term fact can refer to, depending on context, a detail concerning circumstances past or present, a claim corresponding to objective reality, a provably true concept, or a synonym for reality."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact
"Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, concept or thing."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith
Belief and faith opinions but, by their very nature, not facts.
Regards,
John |
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Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| I think ti is wrong and Syria is discriminateing aganist Muslims. We should boycott Syria until they allow freedoms such as in the UK. |
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ummkhadija
Joined: 06 May 2010
Posts: 105
Location: ..The resort city of Saudi Arabia..
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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Dear, JohnSlat
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| The phrase "faith-based facts" seems, to me, to be an oxymoron. While I can see that faith can be, at least partially, based on facts, I can't see how facts can be based on faith. |
You know as I re-read it myself, I can totally understand what you mean. I tried to express the fact that Islam was here before the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) beginning with Adam, but since it came from Quran, others would believe that is is not fact, because it comes from a religious book, so if you are not a Muslim, it has no basis of fact or truth. That is why I used faith based facts.
But, point taken and understood ..
UmmKhadija |
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walkingstick
Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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If one chooses to live in such a country, then one must respect the traditions of that country, much in the same way those of us who chose to live in the Gulf dress conservatively out of respect for the local culture and rules. Shariah law applies to all, expats and locals.
I see nothing wrong with a country defending and putting down into law what is - in that country - perceived as a fundamental right for a woman to dress and go as she pleases.
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Well, I was just thinking about my experience in Iran and noticed how a dress code was FORCED upon the population who was born into that country. You are right by saying that if you choose to live in a country, then you should follow their rules, but there are those who have no choice. For me, wearing that hijab was a pain, but I knew I was going to come back to the States. It's not just a simple dress code for entering businesses or working in a particular building, it's everywhere in that country and it is most definitely FORCED against the will of women there. |
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basiltherat
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 952
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| was FORCED upon the population who was born into that country. You are right by saying that if you choose to live in a country, then you should follow their rules, but there are those who have no choice. |
Agree. And this, I think, is where and when democracy can potentially live up to its claims .... that with a free and democratic voting system (with no gender discrimination), rules which are disliked by the majority can probably be overturned.
Alternatively, where, if one dislikes something so intensely, can involve oneself in politics (like Gert Wielders (sic)) and attempt to change things that way.
In the same way, you can join a club within which you don't like (but are temporarily willing to accept) the rules but have to abide by them. Yet, once in, can attempt to change the rules by getting on to the organising committee and convince enough members to have the rules changed.
That, I believe, is the most sensible and respectful way to make change.
Perhaps I am an idealist because, unfortunately, that is not the way it is in many parts of the world.
My threepenceworth
Best
Basil |
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