Job Discussion Forums

[mark_in_saigon]

"The United States will continue to urge Vietnam to strengthen its commitment to human rights and give its people an even greater say over the direction of their own lives."

I am sure we can argue about a lot of issues about this country, but I would say I personally feel that I have more say over the direction of my life here than over there. One of those crazy things about being here, or there. We are supposed to be the land of freedom, but I feel a lot freer here than there on a moment by moment basis. Maybe all that will change in a flash, but that is one of the reasons I love it here. Now if I could just create my own little red stamp thingy, then I would be set for life. Maybe get one with the wax seal like they used in olden days, that would really impress em.

[haller_79]

People don't have rights, they buy rights.

[mark_in_saigon]

rights in the west, when if fact, we are pretty much controlled, and often more than over here. On a moment by moment basis, I just feel more free here. Maybe I am the only one. Yes, we can say our president is a ninny, great freedom that, but when our system forces us to not have better choices than we do, I wonder how free we really are there?

[LettersAthruZ]

When you CANNOT question those in power without fear of serious repercussions, then that is NOT freedom!

ON THE OTHER HAND, when Corporate Conglomerates control EVERY SINGULAR ASPECT of our economic activities (like, bribing [except we give it the nice name of "lobbying"] for laws that, say, make it nearly impossible for an individual to start a new small business without a HUGE pile of capital backing him or her to pay for attorneys. permit fees, inspection fees, etc. etc. simply for the sake of limiting their competition and these laws are passed under the false guise of "health and safety" for the benefit of the Corporations)!

Naw, we don't have certain freedoms over here.....but compared to the things that go on in a lot of the Tay nations, we certainly have FAR GREATER ECONOMIC FREEDOM here then they do in those countries.

[londo]

Errrr..are we saying that it's harder and relatively more expensive to open a business in the US?

You obviously have never tried to open a company here; months, sometimes years waiting for FDI/DPI approval, 68 seperate documents, 120 official stamps, constantly changing capital requirements and registration rules, constant 'tea money' (approaching 50% of total costs) and that's before working one single day.

In the US or in Europe we (or anyone) can register a corporation in HOURS, and don't think that Vietnam doesn't have H+S rules...ignored by the Vietnamese but they have to be strictly adhered to by foreigners if you don't want the 'tea money' to become a banquet.

as for protection of monopolies or big business restrictive practices..the Vietnamese are masters, blocking any kind of foreign business that might threaten local interests...ask Metro, Nestl�, AirAsia or JetStar ( directors until recently under practical house arrest) what they think.

Tea Party or Tea money ... you make your choice, but to suggest the VNese have more freedom, either 'economically' or politically is plainly perverse.

[mark_in_saigon]

like, small business, or any business. Consider the number of businesses here. I was in restaurants, and at this time, it takes a fortune about equivalent to your retirement needs to open a restaurant, or a viable one. Here, you can open a restaurant for a couple of grand. Look at how the large corporations control the business environment there. Honestly, this seems to be a far more wide open capitalistic system just walking down the streets and looking. Yes, I know there are all these other considerations, but we have crazy considerations in the west also. Again, in restaurants, now we as small operators are forced to do things like use illegal aliens for our crews, and cheat on our taxes, or we are not playing on a level field with our competitors. But, putting the question of business on the side, I just feel like a more free and independent creature here than I do there. It is hard to explain why, as there are so many small things that happen there to show me that we really have to tow the line, which one of those is the one that means the most? I hate to use the example of driving, as really, I do not think this is the process I would design, but I guess it is what makes the biggest difference to me, mentally. But please, do not think that is the only thing, or the real reason, it is just symbolizes the freedom I feel here.

Look up the lyrics to the song Tribal Connection by Gogol Bordello. I love that crazy song, I think it is about some western city.

No can do this no can do that
what the hell can you do my friend
in this place you call your town?

[kh1311]

As foreigners, it may seem like there is a lot more freedom here, but I doubt the Vietnamese would agree with us. The police and other government officials mostly leave foreigners alone, but the Vietnamese get "visits" from these all the time looking for bribes.

It's a lot different when you have a foreign passport that allows you to leave anytime, but they are stuck here.

[Andy123]

I have been here for many years. Sure some things here make me crazy.

There is no doubt that I have more freedoms in Vietnam than in my home country.

It is not perfect and there are always problems but I do what I want and never have experienced any problems. I have never experienced an injustice here. I have always been treated fairly by the police. I certainly can not say that about my home country.

In Vietnam I have more freedom and safety and I grateful I do. MOD EDIT

[ajc19810]

I love Viet Nam as a 'rich' Australian passport holder. It is the reason I keep coming back.

Very profound Mark in Saigon. Many of us return to our home countries and make those realizations and return to Viet Nam for the very reasons you have quoted. A while back I went from only wanting to live in Viet Nam to why don't I get the best of both worlds.

And thats exactly what I do. I jump between the two countries. Money in Australia and then lifestyle (freedom) in Nam.

Cant speak for the States but in Oz you only toe the line if you want to. You can live your life anyway you please. In Viet as a Viet, you don't have that luxury.

[mark_in_saigon]

the societal control of the people here. Much of Asia is that way, the govt does not have to control you as much because your own family and neighbors do. They lavish love and attention on you as a child, and teach you that you are part of the system and must do your duty, and not shame the family, or village, or people. That is why the Japanese would gladly jump off cliffs for the Emperor. So they are controlled, but in a very different way from our crazy selves. We are orphans here, so we do not have that being put on us. We are free from the daily "no can do this no can do that" of the west, and are untouched by the family/society control that manages them. Or that is my observation, anyway. It is an interesting thought to wonder who feels most controlled, we by our machine and govt, or they, by their families and society. Also to wonder which form is less distasteful.

[Seymour Glass]

I couldn't agree more with the point Mark is making...I have lived in Asia for twenty-four years, left right after college when I saw the writing on the wall, I already had some student loans I was worrying about, but the credit card companies were still lined up to get new grads to apply because "we needed to start working on our credit rating..." To me that was just another way for corporate America and the rich to keep controlling us, the modern day version of the company store: St. Peter don't call me cause I can't go, I owe my soul to Master Card..." What are you in the US without a "credit rating..."I am almost fifty now, have never had a credit card and will probably never go back to live in the US, "If you are going to be a foreigner, might as well live in a foreign land" Hope that makes sense to some...

Freedom is a tricky concept and I have seen my fair share of opression here and in the US, who goes to war and dies in battles? My home town has been economically depressed since the early 70's, the only way out for many there was to join the military, recently many have not been coming home...patriotism? or just no other choice?

[londo]

I totally agree with Mark,

As foreigners, doing 'foreigner' jobs at foreigner pay rates and living in 'foreigner' conditions we just don't see the controls.

I do know that when i go home I get truly impatient with government nannying but ask any Vietnamese who controls and they won't say the State. It's mum and dad who decide what they study, what job they do, who they marry and how much money they can spend....well into their forties.

We, on the other hand, at 18 are left to fend for ourselves (good thing too) but we do have the big brother oversight. it's also true we, at least theoretically, have the power to democratically try another 'big brother'. The Vietnamese can't change their Government OR family. They get bullied and told what to do from Mum, Dad, Brother N.1, sister N.1, Uncle N.1, the Boss and everyone in between until finally they get to bully someone else.

Here we can have our cake AND eat it, but as soon as you step into their world, through Marriage or business you see another side...and it's not always a pretty sight.

Tell them we can vote and they don't see the point..but tell them you can spend your money as you wish, sleep with whom you wish, come home when you wish and they're green with envy.

[mark_in_saigon]

[LettersAthruZ]

LONDO wirtes - "Errrr..are we saying that it's harder and relatively more expensive to open a business in the US?

You obviously have never tried to open a company here;"

Actually, I have and currently am.

And, I'm not too sure about Oz, but in The States, I could NEVER hope to do what I'm doing now with my small business without a well-paid attorney, some well-placed connections in City Hall, and a metric tonne of capital to bankroll me through the bulls**t regulations and procedures (where most of these regulations and procedures do not have any rational reason for existing except to discourage competition).

"as for protection of monopolies or big business restrictive practices..the Vietnamese are masters, blocking any kind of foreign business that might threaten local interests...ask Metro, Nestl�, AirAsia or JetStar ( directors until recently under practical house arrest) what they think. "

Right, I'm sure that may be true, and I'm not questioning that, but these companies HAVE the well-paid attorneys on staff AND the backing capital to the point where they'd be welcomed into the Big Boys oligopoly in the U.S.

[londo]

sounds like you had some realy bad experiences in the US, LettersAthruZ,
It also sounds like you are in the restaurant/hospitality field.

Don't know about that (I thought 100% FIEs were still not permitted in that sector) but I can assure you that a professional service or manufacturing company has a far harder time, with minimum capital requirements of some 15-30 times per capita income (that would be $750,000 to $1,500,000 equivalent in the US) just to open an office.
That's plus from $2,000 to $10,000 fees and lawyer.

Yes, for a 100% Vietnamese company it's much less (around 2,000,000VND) but as a foreigner you cannot open a 100% VN Co. and even a 30/70 split is treated as an FIE.

We all hate H+S but then again I also hate cholera, salmonella, food poisoning, child labour, abuse in the workplace and so on....all to be found in Vietnam to much higher degree than the States.

Good luck for the new business, and I hope more do the same, the VN gov needs to understand that SMEs are as important as (if not more than) yet another real estate project or a steel mill that never opens.