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nickpellatt
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 1522
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 Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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I had an interesting rejection email today relating to my work experience and qualifications.
I have around 4 years EFL experience, and I also completed a Trinity Cert TESOL in October 2008, but I was told I didnt have two years post qualification experience and would be excluded for this reason. I did email back stating that I would only be a few months short of post-cert experience, especially considering I would not be available to start for a few months at least.
I did receive another reply ... and to my surprise, the 2 years post qualification experience related to my BA, which I only completed in December last year! First time I have heard of that ... and it could suggest that anyone attempting to complete a degree may still have to wait two years after completing it, before getting a visa with some employers in some provinces.
I am not overly worried as I have something lined up in another country, but I did fancy China again. Im sure my example isnt a common one, and with 'guanxi' Im sure it could be overcome quite easily ... but it is a little strange! |
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johntpartee
Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 3258
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Sounds like they made up an excuse. You're better off. |
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Jeremiah
Joined: 26 Jun 2010
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:23 am Post subject: |
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Don't worry Nick.
I have 6 years experience "edutaining" in China, as well as an advanced degree, and I was once told that I was overqualified!
The guy who sent you the link to access Facebook here in China. |
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Zero
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 1402
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| nickpellatt wrote: |
I had an interesting rejection email today relating to my work experience and qualifications.
I have around 4 years EFL experience, and I also completed a Trinity Cert TESOL in October 2008, but I was told I didnt have two years post qualification experience and would be excluded for this reason. I did email back stating that I would only be a few months short of post-cert experience, especially considering I would not be available to start for a few months at least.
I did receive another reply ... and to my surprise, the 2 years post qualification experience related to my BA, which I only completed in December last year! First time I have heard of that ... and it could suggest that anyone attempting to complete a degree may still have to wait two years after completing it, before getting a visa with some employers in some provinces.
I am not overly worried as I have something lined up in another country, but I did fancy China again. Im sure my example isnt a common one, and with 'guanxi' Im sure it could be overcome quite easily ... but it is a little strange! |
In a way, you could see how this would happen. If the province is being strict about "two years post-degree experience," it's slightly difficult to get around. They probably have to submit the degree or a copy thereof, and the date of graduation is obvious. It could be faked with a Photoshop alteration, but they may not want to go that far.
On the other hand, if your degree was completed long ago, and you have years of, say, ditch-digging experience and no teaching experience, that is probably easier to get around. You/they can just add a few years' teaching experience to the resume, and who would be the wiser? |
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empiler1
Joined: 09 Feb 2010
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| MisterButtkins wrote: |
You have to understand that in China that some of the rules/laws are made for the sake of appearances and are not really followed. For example, p
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Of course, that's widely known. What I've learnt from this thread is the people involved don't happen to know the answer to my question. That's perfectly fine. But it would be nice if there was more "I don't know" and less condescending second guessing while trying to appear to know something.
The answer really is that the government/province rules on foreign workers are difficult to find. I'll solve that problem the easy way by not bothering to find them  |
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Zero
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 1402
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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The closest thing you'll probably get to a real answer is here:
http://middlekingdomlife.com/blog/newest-articles/safea-foreign-teachers-and-chinese-boxes/
The bottom line is, I do believe the two-year rule is in the SAFEA. But the SAFEA is a guideline that provinces can choose to follow, or not.
So yes, the rule is on paper. But it doesn't quite carry the full force of law.
You probably come from a country where rule of law prevails. China is not such a country. It can be hard to get one's mind around but is a crucial concept. It is a large part of what separates the developed world from "developing" countries. |
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empiler1
Joined: 09 Feb 2010
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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Cheers, that's an interesting article. I just wish more people here would acknowledge when they don't know something instead of insulting others to cover it up.
There may well be an official 2-year experience guideline made by SAFEA, but it seems nobody's translated it so no foreigner actually knows. It may or may not be officially adopted by some provinces/municipalities, but again nobody quite knows. Even if it is adopted it may be enforced unpredictably, but that's irrelevant to my question.
By the way, in my country laws are made to be broken too. For example it's illegal to cross a road within 20 meters of a pedestrian crossing, yet people consistently do this, right in front of policemen, and aren't given a second glance. That doesn't change the fact that an official law still exists. It's also illegal to drive an unregistered car, but people in small towns often do this because they have a good relationship with the local cop, and he decides they're not really causing a problem so he lets it go - same goes for drug use. |
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maotouying
Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 119
Location: My Chair In China
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| dgoodsell wrote: |
OK. Seriously. You need a BA minimum but the teaching experience seems to be flexible. Lots of job announcements will ask for 2 yrs, or 1-2 yrs but some will just say teaching experience preferred. Below is part of an actual, current, job announcement:
�Native English speaker: Yes
Bachelor: Yes
Teaching experience: Preferred
Age: 20-50�
I have to disagree with Miles Smiles in that there are jobs still being offered at Chinese universities for Fall 2010. But you�ll have to move fast as it can take awhile to get all the paperwork together for your Z visa. |
I will take it up a notch. It happens every year or so. I will get at least 15 emails asking me if I am available to teach because such and such of a school the FT never arrived. PLEASE HELP US BLAH BLAH BLAH!
or
"Do you know any FT's who can teach we need help desperately".
This goes for on for about a week or two into September! |
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rogerwilco
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
Posts: 1549
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| maotouying wrote: |
| dgoodsell wrote: |
OK. Seriously. You need a BA minimum but the teaching experience seems to be flexible. Lots of job announcements will ask for 2 yrs, or 1-2 yrs but some will just say teaching experience preferred. Below is part of an actual, current, job announcement:
�Native English speaker: Yes
Bachelor: Yes
Teaching experience: Preferred
Age: 20-50�
I have to disagree with Miles Smiles in that there are jobs still being offered at Chinese universities for Fall 2010. But you�ll have to move fast as it can take awhile to get all the paperwork together for your Z visa. |
I will take it up a notch. It happens every year or so. I will get at least 15 emails asking me if I am available to teach because such and such of a school the FT never arrived. PLEASE HELP US BLAH BLAH BLAH!
or
"Do you know any FT's who can teach we need help desperately".
This goes for on for about a week or two into September! |
I have received several of those types of emails already. |
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nickpellatt
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 1522
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| empiler1 wrote: |
By the way, in my country laws are made to be broken too. That doesn't change the fact that an official law still exists. |
And I think there is an article on Middle Kingdom that explains this, as does the post further up the page. The concept of law in China is very different, and it is never, or rarely, intended to be absolute. It is merely a construct to ensure social stability and as such, can be used, changed or ignored to suit and is certainly not absolute. People are rarely trying to be evasive or obstructive when replying to posts here ... experiences relating to China can and do vary from person to person/day to day/province to province |
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Zero
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 1402
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Cheers, that's an interesting article. I just wish more people here would acknowledge when they don't know something instead of insulting others to cover it up. |
There's an article on Middle Kingdom Life about dysfunctional behavior on China EFL boards.
| Quote: |
| There may well be an official 2-year experience guideline made by SAFEA, but it seems nobody's translated it so no foreigner actually knows. It may or may not be officially adopted by some provinces/municipalities, but again nobody quite knows. Even if it is adopted it may be enforced unpredictably |
This sums up China.
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| but that's irrelevant to my question. |
It's very relevant to your question. The fact that you are frantically searching for a written regulation to hang your hat on, rather than accepting that it is a gray area as people here are telling you, betrays a lack of understanding/acceptance of how China works.
| Quote: |
| By the way, in my country laws are made to be broken too. For example it's illegal to cross a road within 20 meters of a pedestrian crossing, yet people consistently do this, right in front of policemen, and aren't given a second glance. That doesn't change the fact that an official law still exists. It's also illegal to drive an unregistered car, but people in small towns often do this because they have a good relationship with the local cop, and he decides they're not really causing a problem so he lets it go - same goes for drug use. |
I guess every country has some of this, but I'd say it's more deeply ingrained in China than in most western countries. |
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empiler1
Joined: 09 Feb 2010
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:07 am Post subject: |
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| Zero wrote: |
It's very relevant to your question. The fact that you are frantically searching for a written regulation to hang your hat on, rather than accepting that it is a gray area as people here are telling you, betrays a lack of understanding/acceptance of how China works.
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I have to correct you there. I'm not frantic, and I'm not trying to hang my hat on anything. I'm just curios at this stage. I've already got my job so previous concerns are gone. When I joined this thread it was because I had been accepted for jobs in 2 provinces. One was saying the authorities would decide if my experience was adequate, the other not. I had to make a decision about which one to turn down.
Although it's a grey area, that doesn't mean it's totally random - even if it was, that in itself would be useful information to guide job-hunting. The general feeling I've picked up seems to be that it may indeed be enforced in some places, or under some circumstances, or that it might be used as an excuse to turn down applicants. This is all helpful to the decision-making process. Pretending it doesn't exist because it's too complicated isn't helpful. |
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Zero
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 1402
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| Now you've got me trying to guess where you're actually from. Let's see. Lawless place. You wrote "grey." Maybe New Zealand? |
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maotouying
Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 119
Location: My Chair In China
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empiler1
Joined: 09 Feb 2010
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:35 am Post subject: |
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| Zero wrote: |
| Now you've got me trying to guess where you're actually from. Let's see. Lawless place. You wrote "grey." Maybe New Zealand? |
Haha, yep lawless. Lucy Lawless It's similar in England too. Many laws seem to exist to guide the authorities on maintaining public order and social development, rather than being rigid and blind. Tho people often feel they are rigid, there are obscure laws that get called into action when the police want an excuse to arrest somebody. And there are others that get overlooked or even turned on their head when they get in the way of society's needs or the public image of the authorities.
Still, at the end of the day immigration is always a mess, unless you're an English person working in Europe, glory day!! Oh wait, even they don't have to pay their speeding tickets do they? |
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