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Newfoundland · Joined: 14 May 2003 Posts: 75 Location: Shanghai

There are alot of problems with ESL in China but from what I can tell the main problem boils down to this: The teachers don't trust the schools, and the schools don't trust the teachers. What makes the situation even worse is the fact that both sides have plenty of examples to back their cases. So is there anything that can be done or is this just the way it will always be? ?

Cowboy Pete · Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2004 2:19 pm Post subject:

You hit the nail on the head. I do not trust them and they should NOT trust me. Twisted Evil

nolefan · Joined: 14 Jan 2004 Posts: 1458 Location: on the run

I beg to differ, folks!

My wife and I are the first foreign teachers at our university. We are taking it upon ourselves to set things up hoping that the next FE won't mess up!
We have gotten our full round trip reimbursed within 1.5 month of our arrival and we are getting them to understand the way foreigners do things. I am not saying that it is "our way or the highway" but more along the lines of "let sit down and talk about this."
I won't lie and say it is easy to bridge the gap between both cultures, but it is easy to gain trust and keep it! I am not sure what teh next FE will do but we hope he/she will appreciate the good foundation we've laid down for him/her.

latefordinner · Joined: 19 Aug 2003 Posts: 973

I wouldn't say that it's easy, Nolefan, but you're on the right track. It is a process, progress can be made and measured. Most of the time, anyway.

Guest · Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2004 10:01 pm Post subject:

I agree with Nolefan

I do trust my School and I hope they trust me. They were very good to me during the 3 months I was sick and two of them even travelled 3 hours to visit me in Hospital in Shanghai on the second visit.

The wages have always been in the Bank on the dot each month, including while I was ill and I feel as though I can approach them with any problems and they treat me with respect. Lets face it folks, they need not treat me with respect as I have never taught before and they are well aware of that.

If people "do a runner" that does not help the ESL teachers who follow them to that school as the new teachers will be watched and mistrusted also. That is why I disagree with just cutting and running when the going gets rough. I think we should stay and face any problems that arise - even though I know how difficult it can be to deal with the Chinese people sometimes.

struelle · Joined: 16 May 2003 Posts: 2372 Location: Shanghai

I'd say you summed it up very well. Lack of trust isn't just restricted to employer / FT relations, it seems that it's imbedded in the Chinese culture. Locals make a very simple but powerful argument to support this: There are too many people in China and too few resources to go around. So, people rely on guanxi and seperate others into those who they have it with, and those they don't. They trust those within their guanxi, and they distrust outsiders. Guanxi takes a long time to build, and trust is earned that way.

Like it or not, in their eyes it's a non-stop competition for resources with too many people going at the trough.

Employers are used to being shrewd and cheating others because if they want to survive, that's the way it's done. People from the West who have grown up with abundant resources and low populations don't need to compete so hard, and trust between strangers is more or less a given.

So it's major culture clash and can create rifts.

But the good news is that lots can be done to reverse this. The best way is to bring a king-sized dose of patience to China and use that to build relationships with employers. It will take time, and it will not be pleasant. Whether they do it willingly or not, problems always come up in the contract. Those problems can be used to strengthen the relationship given perseverance. Or, they can create a rift of distrust.

In my case, I've had nothing but a truckload of problems at my current school but I refuse to throw in the towel. At this point the situation is just terribly bad, but ironically, my relationship with the FAO is now the best it's been in ages.

Steve

arioch36 · Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 3589

Problem #1

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

In my experience, the Chinese keep moving goalposts without apparent or compelling reasons.
The first year might be the best in your life; the second year almost invariably is less than second-best.

There also is that guillotine that applies as soon as you have completed one year: many times FT's are left in limbo until the week before the new term begins. The school is in the meantime muddling through, trying to recruit new faces, failing which they come back to you.
Somebody tell us why schools don't care for long-term employment siutations. They seem to prefer to go through the rocky scenes of negotiating with newbies every year, then letting them pass the probation period, and adapting them to the harshness of the CHinese management style. They clearly prefer attrition to continuity and constancy. Why?

At my school, half of my colleagues have already been informally told their service would not be retained for next term. Tell me: why? Why did they hire others at such an early stage when the newly-hired ones have not even finished their job?

nolefan · Joined: 14 Jan 2004 Posts: 1458 Location: on the run

so much for my bragging about trust... the aussie fellow that is here with just f+cked up big time!!!
Apparently, he allowed one of the students to stay over night in his flat for conversation...yeah right! anyways, I have just been asked by school officials about the whole thing and I know nothing about it... We barely managed to get rind of our "concierege" 2 weeks ago and I have a feeling he will back soon!!

how hard is it to understand that "students are not allowed in the FE quarters after 6:00 p.m. " Evil or Very Mad

struelle · Joined: 16 May 2003 Posts: 2372 Location: Shanghai

arioch36 · Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 3589

arioch36 · Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 3589

Newfoundland · Joined: 14 May 2003 Posts: 75 Location: Shanghai

It seems as though in most cases the managment doesnt really care what is going on as long as the RMB keeps rolling in.

When it comes to business the Chinese will look for every way they can to save every last jiao. But when it comes to the personal relations side of business they are hopeless. Thats one of their major problems they only see dollar signs or yuan signs, and dont actually see whats going on around them. Thats why most of the schools relate so bad with the teachers, they have no idea what the teachers want, and they dont take the time to find out. Of course not every schol is like this some teachers have said how great they have been treated by there schools for example: Rhonda's Place.

Some schools lose teachers frequently and have no idea why, and instead of trying to figure out why, they just slap another teacher in there and the cycle continues. Its like sticking bubble gum on a leak. Instead of taking the time to and effort to fix the leak, they'll just waith for the gum to come off and then stick some more back on.

kev7161 · Joined: 06 Feb 2004 Posts: 5880 Location: Suzhou, China

In my school, I have already negotiated a second contract (for a much better salary) and am just waiting for it to be typed up so I can sign it (so I won't hold my breath).

In our Junior department, Grade 7 had two FTs at the beginning of the year. About two months in, one teacher was moved to a different department and the other was taken out of the Grade 7 level (but he still teaches here, just not that grade). The students then got two more teachers and both of them left in December. In February, I and one of the previous teachers were stuck with these classes. These kids are little monsters who I couldn't control unless I played a DVD - - I felt more like a baby-sitter than a teacher. Of course, got no help from the department. The other teacher was doing "okay" with his class but was struggling as well. Last week, I was told they no longer will use me or the other teacher and two more new teachers will replace us as of this week! (I'm relieved, yet concerned that these kids are in no way, shape, or form going to learn English)

So, my point is, it's no wonder some teachers up and quit - - things seem so chaotic and unorganized (at least in my school), that I'm sure it gets quite frustrating. Some can take it . . . .some can't.