|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
yangyoseop
Joined: 30 Mar 2010
Posts: 47
Location: #1 Sandra Bullock fan in Tallahassee, FL
|
 Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 7:12 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Amarok wrote: |
| It was kotoko's choice to get offended |
I hope to god you are trolling. If not... lol. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
TokyoLiz
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1548
Location: Tokyo, Japan
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
Is G Cthulu, were you intending to disparage JALT, Glenski or both?
| Quote: |
| Or did we step into a self-important JALT conference here? Wink Smile |
Glenski chose to take offense to that comment.
PO1 said
| Quote: |
| JET may introduce students to loving English and other cultures which can later lead to more advanced study. In any case, as kotoko said, some of these rural areas have never even seen a foreigner in person and JET is their only window to that world. Maybe they don't want that window sometimes? |
Many correspondents, me included, don't believe the JET program is value for money, but you're right. JET provides students the opportunity to meet foreign people and possibly get inspired. However, the quality of the interaction can make or break an experience. I've seen a few foreign and Japanese teachers who were downright hostile towards their students, invalidated what the students had learned by presenting grammatical mistakes in presentation (a particularly egregious error I saw was a foreign ALT identifying a sentence as S-V-O when in fact the sentence was S-V-C, and the students disappointed to see the ALT make a rudimentary error).
However, the intention of the program, the quality of the interaction, and the way the expectations of the ALTs, school boards and teachers conflict, I believe.
If the MoE wants to expose children to foreigners, why don't they promote more exchange of students so that children can meet their peers from around the world? Why don't they bring experienced educators from abroad who can teach children about their cultures? These kinds of exchanges of a few weeks, or long term, could be more valuable than having a recent college graduate dropped into a school which has no real direction on how to integrate him/her into their programs.
If the intent is to increase the students' spoken proficiency in English, why don't high schools provide small group conversation labs with TESOL teachers who are native speakers?
But the MoE is still following this "cultural ambassador" seeding plan, which has not proved to have a very high rate of return.
Too bad Glenski is so cranky. He has some valid points to make.
I'm sorry for Kotoko. What could have been a great teacher experience for her is short-circuited by a poor relationship with her school. It looks like she shot herself in the foot there with that English medium lesson, and the Japanese teachers are prejudiced in that they see the ALT as a liability, not a resource. Her comment about being herself "jumped-up" suggests that she might come on a little too strong to her Japanese counterparts.
Not to make Kotoko seem a lone villain. I, too, was stubborn in my attitudes about how things should be done. I'm still learning to take a big breath, tune in to what issues the Japanese teacher/admin is dealing with, and then find ways to smooth things. It's not easy.
But back to the JET Program failure issue - If you don't give people guidance on how to use a resource person, and you burden them with extra time and effort to organize that resource person, the time possibly takes away from instructional/prep time for the teachers. To make matters worse, the resource person themselves is given little guidance from the organization that drops them in to that school....Mottai nai, ne? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
That was a good post, Liz!
| TokyoLiz wrote: |
But back to the JET Program failure issue - If you don't give people guidance on how to use a resource person, and you burden them with extra time and effort to organize that resource person, the time possibly takes away from instructional/prep time for the teachers. To make matters worse, the resource person themselves is given little guidance from the organization that drops them in to that school....Mottai nai, ne? |
This isn't just a problem in the JET program, it's a problem for all ALTs. If teachers / BoEs / schools don't want to deal with showing the ropes to new hires, then the solution is to simply get professional people (and understand that different schools have different expectations, so they cannot just assume that someone with experience and training will automatically know how things work in their particular school) treat them professionally and try to keep them (not directly hiring ALTs even after they've been there for years is a problem). I understand that that isn't actually possible with JET (although it may be part of why JET recently expanded out to five years instead of three- it makes more financial sense as well), though. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Have been out of town and out of Internet contact since Saturday. I'm glad I was. I'll choose to ignore the previous astonishing remarks against me here. Not worth getting wound up over, and they are pretty misplaced anyway.
Still waiting to see what Chulhu has been able to come up with from JET, though. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cvmurrieta
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 209
Location: Sendai, Japan
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Glenski,
Here is the link to the petition to save the JET Program (sic).
http://jetwit.com/wordpress/2010/07/03/jet-roi-jet-program-on-the-chopping-block-by-james-gannon/
Chulu,
It seems Renho and Co. don't think JET is good educational value for the money that's being poured into it. No matter how many "facts" you throw out, you are waging a losing battle.
I don't always agree with Glenski, but no need for ad hominem attacks on him. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
starteacher
Joined: 25 Feb 2009
Posts: 237
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
In the airline industries, eventually every JET has to be run aground and laid to rest 
Because we live in a world of statistics and rates and percentages, i.e. data information society, quantifying the success of JET is zilch. Everyone can blow hot air for pros and cons and have lots of words and presentations, but if TOEIC scores and TOEFL scores and Eiken scores, etc, or whatever they use to compare countries level of English are, then Japan is way way down the league for an industrialised nation, and thus the final capitalation of the scheme.
JET ..it's not so much as in what it's (perfectly sound) aims are....... it simply ain't worth it .... you can give all the qualitative aspects of any educational program, but words and talk no longer count, numbers do. And money is also about numbers. Politicians like numbers.
I hope something comes to replace JET, but if I was a JAPANESE politician, I would think about reinivesting money into its local teachers to train to teach English. After all, many local teachers would jump at the chance (given current economic situation) just as any English native teacher are/have jumped at the chance of doing JET/ALT. The difference is this, a trained local teacher will continue teaching, what, for 20-30-40 years say, and get better at it, whereas how long does a JET/ALT stay to even be able to read the names of the schools they are teaching at in Kanji.... and you want to talk about ROI ? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| cvmurrieta wrote: |
It seems Renho and Co. don't think JET is good educational value for the money that's being poured into it. No matter how many "facts" you throw out, you are waging a losing battle.
|
You haven't read what I've written then. Try again.
| Quote: |
I don't always agree with Glenski, but no need for ad hominem attacks on him.
|
And carrying on in the theme of not reading, you also don't seem to know what ad hominem actually means. At no point did I engage in that. If you want to reply to what I actually wrote, feel free. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| starteacher wrote: |
JET ..it's not so much as in what it's (perfectly sound) aims are....... it simply ain't worth it .... you can give all the qualitative aspects of any educational program, but words and talk no longer count, numbers do. And money is also about numbers. Politicians like numbers.
I hope something comes to replace JET, but if I was a JAPANESE politician, I would think about reinivesting money into its local teachers to train to teach English. After all, many local teachers would jump at the chance (given current economic situation) just as any English native teacher are/have jumped at the chance of doing JET/ALT. The difference is this, a trained local teacher will continue teaching, what, for 20-30-40 years say, and get better at it, whereas how long does a JET/ALT stay to even be able to read the names of the schools they are teaching at in Kanji.... and you want to talk about ROI ? |
You're not helping. In fact, you've got so many imbedded circular clauses and suppressed premises that it's not even coherent.
ROI is a fine thing to discuss. Let's discuss it. Let's actually discuss what people want JET to be, what it currently is, and how to get from one place to the other.
So far, all I've seen is the majority of people here (& in the wider dabate) assuming what they want JET to be and then decrying it because it isn't already that. And then they wonder why I laugh at them... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Here is a link to Arudou Debito's blog (huge human rights activist in Japan).
http://www.debito.org/?p=7344
It asks for people to give their opinions about whether JET should be scrapped. Not many entries yet. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TokyoLiz
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1548
Location: Tokyo, Japan
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
Questions off the top of my head related to whether JET should be scrapped:
1. Why do half of the JET ALTs not renew their contracts?
2. What do JET ALTs do after they return to their home countries related to supporting JET or something related? Compare those who have spent 1, 2 or 3 years on the program.
3. How many ALTs have actually had good experiences as assistants vs. their training as educators? Add this to factors in #2.
4. What quantitative evidence can be shown that shows JET ALTs benefit Japanese society? This is a toughie, I know, but I'd like to see someone try. Just saying "it's good foreign policy" doesn't cut it.
5. What do the JTEs have to say about their ALTs, past and present, trained in teaching or not?
6. Is there any feedback from schools where dispatch ALTs pushed out JET ALTs? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Glenski wrote: |
Questions off the top of my head related to whether JET should be scrapped:
1. Why do half of the JET ALTs not renew their contracts?
|
Sit around doing nothing. Often out in the middle of nowhere, and treated like crap etc. Every three (I think?) years CLAIR puts out an anonymous questionnaire. A lot of people are thoroughly unhappy while on JET (for a variety of reasons, abuse by employers isn't unheard of. They are hired by one group in their home countries to do one job (teach their culture as well as language). They arrive in Japan and work for a different group doing an entirely different job (shut up and do as your told. Be a human tape-recorder, then a human clown, then a tape recorder. Teach the stereotypes that Japanese teachers already have, and in many cases have already taught about 'outside country people'). A lot are very happy. Half leave after a year. Not a surprise.
How many dispatch ALTs leave after a year? How many leave in LESS than a year? If these same people were in the placement of the JET (the actual schools, living in the same town etc) what would be different (other than that they weren't getting paid as much and had less job stability)?
| Quote: |
2. What do JET ALTs do after they return to their home countries related to supporting JET or something related? Compare those who have spent 1, 2 or 3 years on the program.
|
Not entirely a fair question, IMO. Most JETs show up with nothing but an undergraduate degree and experience at part time jobs over the summer and during school. That, plus one to three years in a foreign country that no employer is going to call to check on is not a strong position from which to find a job in most English speaking nations. They could volunteer, sure. But I think their first concern is that they are earning zero when they get back (most go back to school- graduate studies, teacher training or other professional schooling [law and medicine aren't that uncommon]). People who don't go back to school often end up sitting around unemployed or working retail or something like that- exactly the same as everybody else with an undergraduate degree and very little experience.
| Quote: |
3. How many ALTs have actually had good experiences as assistants vs. their training as educators? Add this to factors in #2. |
It relates to number 1 far more than number 2.
| Quote: |
4. What quantitative evidence can be shown that shows JET ALTs benefit Japanese society? This is a toughie, I know, but I'd like to see someone try. Just saying "it's good foreign policy" doesn't cut it. |
The primary benefit of the JET program is to improve the English ability of JTEs, not the students. But in order to actually assess that, they would have to admit that large numbers of Japanese Teachers of English are not fluent in the language that they teach. It's a system where entrance exams change to include less grammar translation requirements and more overall understanding requirements, but JTEs ignore that in continue to teach what they've always taught (sentence level manipulation and grammar translation), and then BoEs and JTEs try to blame the foreigner when the kids don't do that well.
| Quote: |
5. What do the JTEs have to say about their ALTs, past and present, trained in teaching or not? |
The ones who can speak English, or the ones who can't? Add to that the ones who go to professional development seminars (JALT, voluntary conferences etc) or the ones who got their degree and then process a textbook over and over and never change anything that they do (including the way they make use of the ALT), and whose goal is to get out of the classroom and into the BoE? There are far more of the latter than the former.
| Quote: |
6. Is there any feedback from schools where dispatch ALTs pushed out JET ALTs? |
This is Japan. Cheaper is better. They can fire dispatch ALTs by just calling the dispatch company and saying it wasn't them, the dispatch company fired them, and then the dispatch company replying that they they had no choice, the customer is always right and the customer said they wanted a new model ALT.
You can already find help wanted ads in gaijinpot for jobs in Korea that pay more than jobs in Japan, in terms of actual yen amount, without factoring in how much more expensive it is in Japan than Korea. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Never Ceased To Be Amazed
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 3500
Location: Shhh...don't talk to me...I'm playin' dead...
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| starteacher wrote: |
| In the airline industries, eventually every JET has to be run aground and laid to rest |
Cute, but no banana...
Water-bourne vessels are able to be run aground...in the airline industry, aircraft (or JETs as yer pun would go) are retired and put in a boneyard near Davis-Monthan Air Force Base in southern Arizona and, eventually, sold for scrap...
NCTBA |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
razorhideki
Joined: 19 Jan 2010
Posts: 78
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
Gambate: I'd be the first to agree that JET needs to be reformed-I've posted at least one thread to that effect. More must be expected of JETs.
That said, in the meantime, surely the crap that dispatch ALTs are put through is NOT the way to go-surely "cheaper is better" is a self-defeating proposition...would you not agree?
And to suggest that many JETs are "treated like crap" is an unsubstantiated claim. Of all the jobs I've ever had, at home or in E. Asia doing the EFL thing, JET was the best I've ever had. Bar none.
Are you a JET/ex-JET? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| razorhideki wrote: |
Gambate: I'd be the first to agree that JET needs to be reformed-I've posted at least one thread to that effect. More must be expected of JETs.
That said, in the meantime, surely the crap that dispatch ALTs are put through is NOT the way to go-surely "cheaper is better" is a self-defeating proposition...would you not agree? |
I didn't mean that I thought 'cheaper is better'. I meant that it seems to be the chief operating principle of the education system in Japan, especially with regards to hiring native English speaking foreigners.
| Quote: |
And to suggest that many JETs are "treated like crap" is an unsubstantiated claim. |
Then perhaps you missed the part immediately after that where I mentioned the anonymous questionnaire done by CLAIR every three (????) years. I was going based on the results- compiled into a single document and then sent to JETs. This document (that I previously referred to, and you overlooked) is, of course, the substantiation of that claim.
| Quote: |
Of all the jobs I've ever had, at home or in E. Asia doing the EFL thing, JET was the best I've ever had. Bar none.
|
Good! That is the situation for many people. Unfortunately, the opposite is also a situation for some people. Most have somewhere in between. Every Situation is Different.
| Quote: |
| Are you a JET/ex-JET? |
Ex-JET. Still teaching in Japan (my time in JET was 'somewhere in between'). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
