Job Discussion Forums

[jpvanderwerf2001]

My (Russian) colleague just asked me which of the following is correct:

A) If I were her, I would...
or
B) If I were she, I would...

I immediately answered that option "A" is correct. However, then I started to think about it, and concluded that "B" would surely be more grammatically correct. That being said, I'm absolutely positive that I've used "A" my whole life.
I did some cursory research on the Web and it appears that my second-guessing was spot on: We should say "If I were she..." But, man, does that sound--I dunno, awkward.
I told my colleague that both are acceptable, and she should tell her students so. I hope that wasn't a big no-no

Can anyone weigh in here? (And is this an American/British English thing?)

[jpvanderwerf2001]

By the way, the rest of my Post Title was supposed to be "file" (not 'f'); got cut off, I guess...

[johntpartee]

Yeah, "she" is grammatically correct, BUT it sounds odd. This is something I've been harping on about nitpicking our beloved mother tongue to death with these "rules". The "rules" of English are not rules, they are GUIDELINES. Very seldom can it be said that something is ALWAYS a certain way in English; almost invariably there are exceptions. I go with the SOUND of the language, and I don't like the sound of "If I were she", therefore I probably wouldn't say it. It sounds like an affectation.

[GambateBingBangBOOM]

Added to that is that "if I were [her]" is often "if I was [her]" in many varieties of English.

"If I were she" formal to the point of sounding almost archaic
"If I were her" perfectly fine, but slowly being replaced by
"If I was her" (probably) especially in North American spoken English.

[fluffyhamster]

I Googled "if I were they" and the second item in the results ( http://www.beaugrande.com/Ifiwereyou.htm ) contained the following (scroll down to just past halfway down the page, until you reach the '4. PRACTICAL CORPUS WORK FOR TEACHERS' section, then look at the fifth paragraph there):

[the_thinker]

The point here is that we have the pattern be + personal pronoun.

In English in this case we use the accusative form of the pronoun, much as we do in phrases like:

Me and my friends went to the cinema.

Or:

A: Who wants a coffee?
B: Me!

In all these cases the pronoun is being used emphatically in some way, and that is reflected grammatically by using the accusative form.

But ...

There are self-appointed purists that would say that in all these cases the accusative form is being misused, by analogy to to other languages that don't use accusative forms in this way. What they don't realise is that just because accusative forms are used as objects, it doesn't mean they can't be used in other ways too, such as those above.

What we seem to lack is any terminology to describe the phenomenon, and that makes it easier for people to start saying it's grammatically incorrect to use the accusative form after a copular verb like be.

[johnslat]

Dear the_thinker,

"There are self-appointed purists that would say that in all these cases the accusative form is being misused, . . "

"Me and my friends went to the cinema." Yikes

Such as (ahem) me - I object to an object's being used as a subject. But I'm an appointed (and anointed) purist.

Regards,
Pure John

[the_thinker]

OK, so are you saying that you would never answer the question 'Who wants a coffee?' with the word 'me'? And that it's unacceptable to do so? If not, then you're already accepting that accusative forms are sometimes used as subjects.

[zandos]

It must be a Welsh thing, but most people here in Wales, including teachers would say - If I was you.

Now, I know that is incorrect, but different area's do have different ways of saying things, but everyone know's what is being said so would it make a difference?

[johnslat]

Dear the_thinker and zandos,

In conversation, you can get away with a LOT of things. I mean, not many of us speak in complete sentences all the time. As long as your message is understandable (and understood,) the Grammar Police aren't likely to haul you in.

But some of us also teach writing and "formal speaking" (i.e. presenting research summaries, public speaking, etc",) and, like it or not, there is a tendency to judge a person by how he/she uses his/her language.

Sure, I hear "Me and _____________." sentences all the time, and I know the meaning that's intended. But I'd cringe a bit if I heard an English teacher talking that way, and I'd cringe more than a bit were he/she talking that way in a classroom.

Some of us also teach students who are going to take tests (e.g. the TOEFL) which tend to be merciless to those who think that a "Me and _____________" sentence or an "If I was you ________" is correct English.


"And that it's unacceptable to do so? If not, then you're already accepting that accusative forms are sometimes used as subjects."

Oh, I certainly accept that - people use incorrect grammar all the time.

Regards,
99.99% Pure John

[jpvanderwerf2001]

Ok, I can get on-board the "Who wants a coffee? - Me!" train, but I'm just not down with "Me and my friends went to a movie" maneuver.

[the_thinker]

Well the whole idea of grammatical correctness has been gone over so many times, but I can't resist replying.

There is a difference between grammatical (in)correctness and (in)appropriacy of usage. Yes, we have decided, often quite arbitrarily, that some forms are not appropriate in formal, written contexts, I think often on the basis of ignorance and/or invented rules (e.g. not splitting infinitives, not putting prepositions at the ends of words, not using accusative forms of person pronouns as subjects). As well as this, there are plenty of features of written English that are intrinsically important in making written text readable; we don't speak in paragraphs, but it may be important for students to be able to write good, coherent paragraphs, so it may be necessary to teach this. In general, I'd say it's important to draw students' attention to these kinds of things if it's likely to be important for them to conform to these standards.

What I don't agree with is the idea that formal, written English is 'correct', and that forms associated with spoken English are incorrect. Who's to say what a 'complete sentence' is? If you judge spoken English by written standards, then, yes, it will seem incorrect. But you could equally reverse this process and find written English to be 'wrong' on the basis of the forms we use in spoken English. Ronald Carter has written quite extensively on this; you might like to have a read of this article:

http://www.naldic.org.uk/docs/members/documents/NQ52.3.pdf

There are features of written English grammar that are exclusive to written English, and the same applies to spoken English. But it's not a question of accepting 'incorrect' grammar in spoken contexts ��there are just different rules.

My view on the whole accusative pronoun thing is that it's considered incorrect just because nobody ever came up with a grammatical term to describe the phenomenon. So we call them object pronouns and say "Hey! That's incorrect because we need a subject form after be, or before a verb!" If we had actually had a grammatical term for it, then somehow it would become official and acceptable. Don't believe me? Well, in French there is a category of personal pronouns, some of which are the same as the accusative pronouns, that work in almost exactly the same way. There's an overview here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_personal_pronouns#Disjunctive_pronouns

Nobody says French disjunctive pronouns are 'incorrect grammar'. Why? Because they happened to be identified at some point and given a fancy name. The only difference is we didn't do the same with the English equivalents.

[johnslat]

Dear the_thinker,

Very interesting from a theoretical POV. However, teaching "Me and ___________________" most places in the real world would likely cut short your term of employment.

As you pointed out, " . . . it's considered incorrect."

Regards,
John

[Never Ceased To Be Amazed]

[the_thinker]