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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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 Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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Dear the_thinker,
I think you'd want to avoid it in formal speaking, as well. You just might be making life a little more difficult for your students by introducing all these different contexts that they should be aware of.
It kind of reminds me of how some teachers used to prohibit the use of "Can I . . ." to make a permission request (It's too INFORMAL.)
Regards,
John |
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Hindi2610
Joined: 08 Aug 2010
Posts: 25
Location: Mumbai
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| the_thinker wrote: |
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Very interesting from a theoretical POV. However, teaching "Me and ___________________" most places in the real world would likely cut short your term of employment.
As you pointed out, " . . . it's considered incorrect." |
Welllll ... I do teach it, very regularly. I certainly think it's important to teach that we don't say or write:
* I and my friends ...
* My friends and me ...
But I teach both 'My friends and I', and 'Me and my friends ...', pointing out the important register difference. It's considered incorrect only in certain contexts; in an informal email or conversation, it would go totally unnoticed by the majority of interlocutors/readers. In formal writing, you'd want to avoid it. |
Well if you're not capable to teach to the pupils proper forms, may I kindly ask why you're spanning the globe spreading willy nilly forms? Just whistling Dixie? Step out of the post and let professionals in the game! |
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AGoodStory
Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| Annoying little insect. SPLAT! |
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jpvanderwerf2001
Joined: 02 Oct 2003
Posts: 1117
Location: New York
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| the_thinker wrote: |
| Quote: |
Very interesting from a theoretical POV. However, teaching "Me and ___________________" most places in the real world would likely cut short your term of employment.
As you pointed out, " . . . it's considered incorrect." |
Welllll ... I do teach it, very regularly. I certainly think it's important to teach that we don't say or write:
* I and my friends ...
* My friends and me ...
But I teach both 'My friends and I', and 'Me and my friends ...', pointing out the important register difference. It's considered incorrect only in certain contexts; in an informal email or conversation, it would go totally unnoticed by the majority of interlocutors/readers. In formal writing, you'd want to avoid it. |
I'm not really sure I understand the point of teaching the wrong language usage unless, perhaps, the students were at proficiency level (and maybe needed to know? I dunno).
Of course, you are right, many people use that (incorrect) "Me and my friends..." construction, but I don't see much value in teaching it. I mean, "My friends and I..." is always correct, in every context, so why not teach that?
Teaching the correct construction isn't being pedantic. |
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jpvanderwerf2001
Joined: 02 Oct 2003
Posts: 1117
Location: New York
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:38 am Post subject: |
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Tried deleting my repeat post.
Last edited by jpvanderwerf2001 on Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:59 am; edited 1 time in total |
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johntpartee
Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 3258
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| Well if you're not capable to teach to the pupils proper forms, may I kindly ask why you're spanning the globe spreading willy nilly forms? Just whistling Dixie? Step out of the post and let professionals in the game! |
Hindi, I'm going to give you some unsolicited advice. Quit making a fool of yourself. You're inviting ridicule. |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 5:16 am Post subject: |
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In an ideal world of course, students would be clearly (that is, much more clearly!) taught and therefore left in no doubt about the differences between major registers (such as generally informal conversation versus formal academic writing - with the former usually [claimed to be ideally and comprehensively] taught before the latter), and relatively recent books like the Longman Grammar of Spoken and Written English (Biber et al 1999), which looks at and compares variation in the grammar(s) of (British "versus" American) conversation, fiction, news, and academic prose, would seem pretty useful in this regard.
The following (which isn't all quite one continuous block in the original text - I've been selective!) is directly drawn from or closely based on material in chapter 4, section 4.10, of the LGSWE. I haven't supplied that many of the plentiful examples the LGSWE provides however, unless they are especially relevant to the point being made, because a) I don't want to infringe the copyright too much, b) it would be a lot more to type, and c) I'm assuming that those genuinely interested in this sort of stuff will either be reasonably familiar already with the terminology involved, or be able to work out what's being said even without lots of accompanying examples.  The statistical information by the way is presented much more clearly in the original, in the form of proportional "each individual blob represents 5%" chart-diagrams.
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Nominative v. accusative forms of personal prounouns
Pronoun choice after forms of be
Despite a traditional prescription based on the rules of Latin grammar, accusative forms are predominant in all registers where the relevant forms are found. In conversation, where indeed we might expect to find a change most advanced, they are nearly universal. Even where cleft constructions occur in conversation, we usually find an accusative form, together with that or a zero connective.
CONV
it BE pronoun who: I/he < 2.5%, me/him 5%
it BE pronoun that/zero: I/he < 2.5%, me/him 15%
it BE pronoun (final): I/he < 2.5%, me/him 80%
FICT
it BE pronoun who: I/he 35%, me/him 5%
it BE pronoun that/zero: I/he < 2.5%, me/him 5%
it BE pronoun (final): I/he 5%, me/him 45%
NEWS
it BE pronoun who: I/he 40%, me/him 10%
it BE pronoun that/zero: I/he < 2.5%, me/him 5%
it BE pronoun (final): I/he < 2.5%, me/him 45%
In fiction and news, accusative forms are also the norm for subject predicatives following the copula be. However, cleft constructions generally have nominative forms followed by who. The nominative forms are presumably felt to be more correct, as they are typically coreferential with the subject of the following subordinate clause. It is also significant that in these registers who is often chosen to introduce the subordinate clause rather than that or zero connective, which are typical of casual speech.
Pronoun choice after as and than
Accusative forms are predominant after as and than, especially in conversation, where as and than seem to behave like prepositions rather than conjunctions introducing elliptic degree clauses. In fiction, nominative and accusative forms are fairly evenly divided. Both types are extremely rare in news and academic prose. Instead, writers frequently opt for a full comparative clause, thereby avoiding a choice between a nominative and an accusative form. Writers can also avoid a case choice by using a reflexive pronoun.
CONV: as/than + I/he < 2.5%, as/than + me/him 100%
FICT: as/than + I/he 45%, as/than + me/him 55%
Pronoun choice in coordinated noun phrases
Accusative forms are occasionally used in subject position, if the subject is realized by a coordinated noun phrase. For the most part, such usage is restricted to conversation. The accusative forms are predominantly found as the first element of the coordinated phrase. Nominative forms meanwhile are the only ones attested in academic prose, and they are by far the most frequent choice in fiction and news. The nominative forms have different preferred orders in a coordinated phrase: he is almost always in first position, I is usually in second position.
CONV: I and X <2.5%, X and I 50%, me and X 40%, X and me 5%
FICT: I and X <2.5%, X and I 90%, me and X < 2.5%, X and me 5%
NEWS: I and X 10%, X and I 80%, me and X 5%, X and me < 2.5%
CONV: he and X 35%, X and he < 2.5%, him and X 40%, X and him 25%
FICT: he and X 80%, X and he 10%, him and X < 2.5%, X and him < 2.5%
NEWS: he and X 100%, X and he < 2.5%, him and X < 2.5%, X and him < 2.5%
The order of preferences in coordinated noun phrases are connected partly with tact on the part of the speaker and partly with the weight and information status of the coordinated elements. Where pronouns are coordinated with full noun phrases, we would ordinarily expect the pronoun to be placed initially, as pronouns are unstressed and generally convey given information. This is the main pattern observed for he, but I is almost always placed second in the coordinate phrase. I represents a more considered choice, and it is felt to be more tactful to delay reference to the speaker; in addition, it is considered to be formally more correct, according to precriptive grammar, to use a nominative form. The almost complete lack of accusative forms in the written registers, even though they are common in conversation, reflects the fact that writers are consciously aware of this choice, and that accusative forms are stigmatized.
The influence of prescriptive grammar may also lead to an occasional hypercorrect use of nominative forms in contexts where the accusative form is the regular choice:
Well there's two left in there and that's not enough for you and I. (CONV)
So really it sounds the sort of thing that'll be nice for you and I to go really just to get away from the children. (CONV)
Balthazar says that the natural traitors like you and I are really Cabbali. (FICT)
As the coordinated noun phrases in these examples are the complement of a preposition, we expect accusative forms. Such examples of hypercorrect nominative forms are generally rare.
Reflexive pronouns are also found occasionally in coordinated noun phrases in subject postion; as remarked before, having no case contrast they provide a convenient means of avoiding choosing between nominative and accusative case. But examples of this kind are generally rare and occur mainly in news.
Pronoun choice in peripheral and non-integrated noun phrases
In conversation and fictional dialogue, the prefaces or tags that are added respectively before or after the pronoun, that make its referential meaning more clear, usually take the form me and X e.g. Me and my friend Bob, we'd been to a game. Answers to questions are frequently not integrated into a clause: A: Who told you? B: Me. C: And me; A: I mean he ain't a hundred percent fit. B: Who? A: Him.
Summary of factors affecting pronoun case choice
To summarize, accusative forms are used in a wider range of contexts than nominative forms. Accusative forms are generally used in conversation after be, after as and than, frequently in coordinated noun phrases in subject position, and normally in peripheral and non-integrated noun phrases. In addition, they are of course the regular choice in the typical accusative positions, i.e. as an object in a clause and as a complement in a prepositional phrase. In fact, the only position where nominative forms are regularly used in conversation is as a simple subject occuring next to the verb of the clause.
Fiction exhibits a more conservative use of the case forms, with a fairly high frequency of the nominative after be (chiefly in cleft constructions) and after as and than, while nominative forms are almost universal in coordinated noun phrases in subject position. Choices in news are fairly similar to those in fiction. Academic prose, which has a very low overall frequency of pronouns, provides few examples of the relevant forms, with not a single example of the accusative being attested in the LSWE corpus. |
But perhaps any concerns regarding functional "appropriacy" (e.g. not wanting a student to sound too formal in general conversation with native speakers at least) are not worth worrying or bothering about too much in many teachers' opinions! (My personal view is that every teacher is entitled to their individual opinions, especially if they chime with those of their employers if not their students, but that they should still know or be made aware of the empirical facts before confirming or solidifying their position - hence my posting the stuff from Beaugrande, and the LGSWE, to help people make up their own minds  ). |
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the_thinker
Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 68
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| I'm not really sure I understand the point of teaching the wrong language usage |
The problem is ... who are you to tell me what is 'wrong language usage'? I base my judgements on attested data drawn from real language usage (such as the findings from corpus linguistics kindly presented by fluffyhamster), not on what individuals choose to tell me is right and wrong.
As I said, my view is that it's not a question of right and wrong, but appropriacy. Fluffyhamster is right when he says you wouldn't want a student to sound too formal in general conversation (e.g. by using 'My friends and I ...'), just as you wouldn't want them to sound too informal in formal writing or formal speech (e.g. by using 'my friends and I ...').
That is the value of teaching it � students need to know the right form for the right context. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| the_thinker wrote: |
| you wouldn't want a student to sound too formal in general conversation (e.g. by using 'My friends and I ...') |
Eh? Since when has this been considered too formal in general conversation? |
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jpvanderwerf2001
Joined: 02 Oct 2003
Posts: 1117
Location: New York
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| I know my buddies chuckle at me relentlessly when I throw out the ol' "My friends and I..." move. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Seriously? Who are they? From down on the farm? |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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You know - this would make a great Monty Python skit:
C (Customer: John Cleese): Excuse me. I would like to take an English course.
O (Owner: Michael Palin): Of course. And would you want to learn English that's considered correct or English that's considered incorrect?
C: Are you putting me on, matey? Why in heaven's name would I want to learn English that's considered incorrect?
O: Why, because that's how most English-speaking people speak: incorrectly.
C: Go on, now. That's rubbish. You're speaking correctly, aren't you?
O: Only because I'm in a formal context. Me and my friends don't talk like this when we're in an informal context.
C: Well, if I want to learn incorrect English, how long will it take?
O: Oh, a few decades. There are so many different ways of being incorrect, you see. The considered correct English course is much shorter since there are usually so many fewer ways to be considered correct. But you won't regret it, believe me.
C: OK, sign me up for the incorrect English course, then. And by the way, do you sell parrots?
O: Of course - would you like a live parrot or a dead one?
Regards,
John |
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the_thinker
Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 68
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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OK, I'm willing to back down on the 'too formal' in general conversation claim. To me it sounds a little awkward and somewhat affected; perhaps it's an age thing. But that doesn't make the alternative 'incorrect'.
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| that's how most English-speaking people speak: incorrectly. |
Again, I want to emphasise the difference between 'incorrect' and 'considered incorrect', because what's important to me is who it actually is that considers something incorrect. You can find all sorts of style guides outlawing all kinds of structures (e.g. NO split infinitives, NO prepositions at the end of a sentence, use THAT for defining relative clauses and WHICH for non-defining relative clauses, use LESS for uncountable nouns and FEWER for countable nouns, use LATIN/GREKK plural forms with loan words etc. etc. etc.).
I choose not to listen to much of this 'advice' as it seems to be based not on scientific analysis of how language is actually used, but on personal prejudice, and generally since the writers of these guides are not respected linguistics I don't care for their judgements on what is correct or not.
I think some of you are also somewhat overestimating the teaching implications of all this. I'm not suggesting we teach all forms in every dialect of English. I'm saying we shouldn't tell students a certain form is incorrect if it is a form that is used by native speakers very frequently. I want to teach English as it is actually used ��that means teaching forms that are appropriate in formal contexts, but also those that are appropriate in informal contexts. This doesn't mean you have to teach slang used by minority groups ��but it does mean teaching forms that are used ��and accepted � in informal contexts, even if those might be best avoided in formal contexts. |
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johntpartee
Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 3258
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| O: Of course - would you like a live parrot or a dead one? |
C: Why on earth would I want a dead parrot?
O: It's quieter and won't cost you anything to feed.
Okay, so I'm not a comedian, but I couldn't resist an opening like that. |
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AGoodStory
Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| ". . .my view is that it's not a question of right and wrong, but appropriacy. Fluffyhamster is right when he says you wouldn't want a student to sound too formal in general conversation (e.g. by using 'My friends and I ...')" |
Got to say that I'm a bit bemused by the notion that grammatical speech is "too formal" or "inappropriate" for everyday conversation. Certainly not in my little corner of the US--hearing "my friends and I are going to the movies" doesn't really cause anyone to flinch at the formality, or to think "oh, how affected." On the other hand "me and my friends are going. . . " doesn't suggest an educated speaker. This may be fine if it suits your student's purpose, and presumably you point this out, and also point out that it the usage you are teaching may invite criticism. Seems like a major waste of their time, though, as well as potentially confusing. (An additional layer of confusion and complication that they just don't need, when the one form would be acceptable in ALL situations.)
| Quote: |
"Of course, you are right, many people use that (incorrect) "Me and my friends..." construction, but I don't see much value in teaching it. I mean, "My friends and I..." is always correct, in every context, so why not teach that?"
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And appropriate, too.
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"But I teach both 'My friends and I', and 'Me and my friends ...', pointing out the important register difference. It's considered incorrect only in certain contexts; in an informal email or conversation, it would go totally unnoticed by the majority of interlocutors/readers. In formal writing, you'd want to avoid it."
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You might want to gather more info about this "majority," and whether the above statement is, in fact, true. Shrugged off, yes; accepted, perhaps; but "unnoticed"--not around here. You are putting your students in a potentially difficult situation, in which, through no fault of their own, they sound poorly educated, and are forced to try to understand nuances of situations they might very easily misread. The kids on the street are not going to laugh if they hear, "My friends and I are going to a movie." But your student might lose a chance at job when he says "Me and my friends like to. . . " or "If I was you. . " (Or perhaps they will very reasonably extrapolate to "If me was you. . .") Your students are bombarded by variables and possible choices every time they open their mouth to speak English. Do them a favor, and eliminate a few for them. (Variables, not students!)  |
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