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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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 Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Sheep-Goats wrote: |
| But if the work, pay and especially benefits themselves are good, I would be satisfied with a much more "grunt-level" teaching posistion -- which, if it was at a university (in Americanese that means at least 18 to 22 year olds pursuing a BA), would never be considered "grunt-level" even in my mind of minds. |
I can only speak for myself, but these are some of the perks I enjoy:
10-12 classes a week
teach about 30 weeks of the year, not really required to be on campus except for scheduled classes and a weekly meeting.
shared office with Internet
research and travel allowance (can use to attend overseas conferences)
photocopying and computer lab facilities
opportunity to publish in a wide range of journals
Can get free textbooks and teaching resources for use in class. Dont remember the last time I paid for a book or CD.
Yearly bonuses
pension and health insurance partially paid for.
Downsides:
3 year job contracts which means you are looking for a job as soon as you start, or at the beginning of your 3rd year.
Job insecurity. having to re-oreint yourself to a new school every 2-3 years.
Large classes of varying levels or ability and motivation. My EFL classes now have 40-50 students, including reading classes.
Not easily transferable job opportunities out of Japan (though there are some if you look and have a phD and experience) . Gilded birdcage, you might say.
Stiff competition for jobs
Lack of available places to work. Less than a dozen full time positions being offered in my area last Christmas, which meant possibility of relocation outside immediate area.
Sometimes you dont get much say in what texts are used, and in some schools, lessons are planned down to the minute by the higher ups.
Depending on your school, a lack of interest by Japanese colleagues in your speciality or areas of interest. Lack of feedback or support for your pet projects. Getting Phds etc is discouraged. |
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Gordon
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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Sheep-goats,
I'm not sure what your impression of university teaching is like in Japan, but I think you have the wrong idea. This is not something I'd strive for years for. Yes, the perks are good as Paul alluded too, but the teaching here is disappointing. You teach and then you go home, there is little rewarding about it. If you try to change the way things operate, you're up against thousands of years of history. I'm not saying you can't get a uni job here, but it takes a long time and frankly, I doubt it is worth it. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Dont want to cry in my beer or feel sorry for myself here, but I spent a good part of $20,000 on a Masters degree, am sinking about UK STG14,000 on another graduate degree, and my salary still got cut this year about 45% when I involuntarily changed jobs.( Shoved out more like it- I was on a good wicket before but have now experienced a 'market correction'). You have to consider whether the time, expense and energy spent in getting pieces of paper just so can get your foot in the door here as an EFl teacher, and you are still treated like temporary hired help with no real hope of getting in someone on a semi permanent basis (sukketo is the b@stard term for such people) for 2-3 years at the most, is really worth it. |
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sidjameson
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 629
Location: osaka
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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well I got to just balance it up and say that although some good points have been made I do think that teaching at a university level here is more than worth it. If you can accept the intellectual limitations of the teaching of English and come to think of it the intellectual limitations of your students as well then there is a very nice lifestyle to be had. Where else without selling your soul to the coporate devil can you make at least $45000 a year in an almost stress free enviroment and get nearly half the year off as holidays? not to mention that you can be home by 4.
If Einstein were alive today he wouldn't be working in a library to fund his intellectual past times he would be teaching English at a university. (might have got things a bit mixed up here  )
This is my last year in Japan (probably ) as I just have a desire to try newer pastures but I can't help thinking that I will never have it anywhere near as good as this again.
Might become an alcoholic whoring retiree in Thailand |
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sidjameson
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 629
Location: osaka
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Hi PaulH. What kind of degree costs 14k? Just curious? |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| sidjameson wrote: |
| Hi PaulH. What kind of degree costs 14k? Just curious? |
Thats 14,000 British pounds, not dollars, and its a PhD in Applied Linguistics by distance learning. Top shelf school, too.
http://www.bham.ac.uk |
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Smooth Operator
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 140
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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Paul has covered most points already, but let me say that if you find a university that doesn't dictate what you teach then it can be very rewarding, and not just financially.
For myself, I teach full-time here (5 year limit on contracts though  ) but I have the freedom to teach an EAP (English for Academic Purposes) programme which focuses on the students' major subject. I DON'T have an MA in TESOL or Linguistics, but an MA in the same subject as the name of my university department. Hence, I am a specialist, and I was lucky to find my present job. However, I'm not the only one in Japan doing that. An MA in TESOL/Linguistics is the �lowest common denominator� in that it opens the most doors but also makes you little different from all your competitors. Specialising in something marketable MIGHT be another path to follow.
By the way, a piece of advice, if I may be so bold. You mentioned a few times your writing abilities. Reading your posts I am sorry to say they are not so apparent. I don�t want to criticise but modesty, or at least the appearance of it, is an important attribute in Japan�
Anyway, time is on your side. When I was 24 I was bumming around SE Asia for months on end not thinking about my future�  |
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Gordon
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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You've all made some good points here. I think what the worst part about university teaching in Japan is that jobs are not permanent. Of course nothing in this world is, but when employers force you to leave after 3-5 years, it doesn't make for a very secure environment. As Paul mentioned, who wants to leave a cushy job after 3 years? I happen to be very fortunate for some great reason, my university doesn't limit the number of years a professor can work for them. I can stay as long as I want, as long as I don't screw up or the uni folds (not a rare occurence in Japan).
I also want to second what Smooth Operator said, it can't hurt to be a little more modest. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:32 am Post subject: |
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| Sheep-Goats wrote: |
First, the math tells me that I'm 24 right now, and that tells me that by all rights I ought to not know my ultimate goal just yet. So let me explain my current goals, and the reasons I'm looking closely at Japan.
I'm interested in writing. If I could chisel out enough for a shoebox and food in a city of any passing level of interest (so, say, Austin might make the cut but Iowa City isn't going to cut it) I would do that. But right now I'm mostly interested in poetry, and for getting employed at a university teaching that you can take most of your Japan-teaching requirements and quadruple them. The only universtiy I know of that employs and of the poets I've read is Temple, and you have to be a gigas to get that posistion.
Not a helluva lot of demand for poets and writers in japanese universities though there are many Japanese professors wo teach literature including poetry. Foreigners here are employed to teach the spoken and communicative forms of the language, and such things as TOEIC, TOEFL and CALL. This year I am teaching a comparative cultures course- how to homestay in the US without them getting shot or beaten up for cultural faux pas. Temple has a campus here and all their teachers have phDs and d.eds, many are former graduates of the Temple schools in japan
So why not teach poetry at the community college level somewhere in America (the obvious answer), or just work as a taxi driver (big money) or security guard (you can often write on the job) or something? Well, there are many reasons for this. I've known plenty of community college teachers, I've worked as a security guard, and I have a friend who has driven a taxi.
The problem with all of these lies in the old parable about (generally a Mexican, for some reason) fisherman. You know, the one who was content with his simple fishing life until someone told him how if he worked hard he could make more money -- and now he works hard and makes more money but has a bad life. And the lesson is just work a little bit and live well. The problem with the parable, though, is that the fisherman probably had a wife, and some kids, and one day his kid probably got sick or got a fishook in his eye or something, and now the problems with working just to satitate current needs become almost lewdly apparent.
Not sure what any of this has to do with getting a teaching job here, except that you dont want to be a taxi driver and getting an education or teaching at a university makes you feel like you are worth something. I have a wife who doesnt work and two kids. If I dont work we dont eat and my two kids dont go to school. there is no higher meaning involved. When you work you get a salry to pay the bills. Monthly expenses for me are about 400,000 yen a month. No other place Im going to get it from.
The truth is that I need to secure a backup set of bulletproof employability in some field, and that while my current job in Thailand is quite a good one,
Well my bulletproof job has a 3 year lifespan on it, 2 if you count the last year you spend looking for jobs. Foreigners jobs here have a built in obsolescence
I only make 1000 USD a month doing it, and if I meet some Thai girl and have a kid then that's not going to be enough. And that means I'll have to start really working at the level I'm currently qualified at, and that means the Korean death mill (probably), and that means I can just forget about poetry for about 20 years, until the kid is well and fully grown.
You are going to find it tough where ever you are. I have a wife and kid and didnt know in January if i had a job or not, where I was going to live and where the kids would go to school. We have a dog too, and many houses here do not accept animals.
Salaries are cheap in Thailand becuase they believe there that anyone can teach English as long as you are a native speaker, just like a JET or a conversation school teacher here. At university here at least they are starting to ask and demand a Masters degree, formal teaching qualifications and experience on par with a university teacher back home, not just a wannabe who thinks it would be nice to teach at a university to satisfy their ego or pretensions
It's no small secret among writers that the university is your greatest hope for shelter and sustience -- 1000 years ago it was the patronage of a king or consul, now that patronage system has been re-reified into what we have, more or less world-wide now, as the education cult. And it's really not such a bad thing that while Jeff Jr. studies to run dad's sugarcane plantation he can take a little time out of his macroecon and b. ethics schedule to read a little Virgil, and keep some goddamn perspecitve.
Excuse me but this is platitudinal and cliched claptrap and nothing to do with the question at hand. The university just chucked me my wife and tow kids out on its arse becuase of an arbitrary deadline, even though they renewed my contract last year becuase it was convenient for them. this was at a national government run university
In addditon to this, I'm more of a happy little monkey surrounded by university type people.
and what type of people might they be? Grass is greener over this side?
But in the staffroom of the vastly underqualified (by Japanese University standards) understaffed WHAT I currently work in, if I want to, I can just pick someone out and argue about wether sp education should be compulsory, or if it's a good thing on moral grounds to tell students their grades, or whatever.
Education is compulsory in many countries until the age of 15, and yes, i do tell students my grades and why they fail in many cases. thats my job. As long as students know how high the bar is set and what your criterion are there is no moral dilemma.
Okay: So that covers: 1) why university economically, and 2) why university for myself and 3) why university for the work environment itself.
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| Sheep-Goats wrote: |
Now, why Japan, and why EFL? Well, as I said, EFL is, quite admittedly, the backup zone for me -- but that in all probability, the majority of my teaching life will be there.
So you like writing and poetry, not crazy about teaching TEFL but could quite happily spend 10-15 years of your life working your way into aposition which is after all, not your first choice and an expedient alternative to yuor real desires
This is mainly for two reasons, 1) writing positions are hard to get and 2) there are obvious moral and therefore some artisitc problems with being employed by an institution for the sake of your art alone.
Huh? You have won the Booker Prize or pulitzer for Literature then Been reviewed on Oprah Winfey at all? As someone in the middle of writing a dissertation, dealin with writers block etc, writing is lonely, unglamorous, hard work and it doesnt pay the bills each month.
Dave Hickey wrote some excellent essays on this (and other things), but to be brief, universities are a different structure than patronage as they care quite passionatly about what your work means (whereas patronage is more concerned about what your work, ah, looks like -- it doesn't dig too deep). This obviously puts pressure on you to keep your poetry in-line with the mission of your employer(s), or else you loose your job and what happens then if your kid gets sick?
I guess only you know what your point is here, not the sign of a polished writer if people cant understand what you mean or what the relvance is. Lots of big words, pontificating but very little substance
So, it's perhaps best for me to keep my work and my secret hidden work seperate -- like the Spiderman movies of late, if one life comes too close to the other, people will probably get hurt because of it.
So, okay, best to not teach poetry. Why EFL? Well, because EFL offers the lions share of chances at variety as a teacher. Any other teaching profession almost miraculosly ties you to one or two places, in the end, if you have concerns beyond yourself (and I'm trying to plan for the day when I probably will).
there is only one teaching profession, but many different kinds of teachers and different genres. teaching profession is singular, and refers to the art and science of teaching, be it high school, university or slow learners
And why Japan? Well, having never been there and seeing as those working in Japan always seem to doubt that anyone could be as truly devoted to Japaneseness as they are
This is Greek to me. What are you trying to say? foreigners compete with each other to see who si more Japanese or into the culture than others?
(just as the anime dorks elitist snob in America feel), I should say that other than my home country most of my time has been spend spentin pursuits more Japanese Japanese language or Japan? meaning unclear here than anything else. Sankyu in Judo, for example. But, my two most compelling reasons to come to Japan (my other country of interest, at the moment, is Italy) are the money and the Japanese themselves. In general, I'm a devotee of my fellow nationals above most others (as many people are) You are devoted to fellow Americans? what on earth for?
, but in my dealings with Japanese people I've found them to be generous (the Thais are not), honest (the Chinese are not), friendly within reason (the French are not), but mostly devoted to something beyond whatever's in front of their face and spirited.
many Japanese are also racist, xenophobic, insular, conservative, duplicitious, do not recognise academic merit or ability and feel threatened by foreigners learning their language and culture
Will I be in Japan for two years and then leave? I don't know. I really can't defend myself on that front as I haven't been there! But, let me say that I see no reason why I wouldn't stay, and all the times I've left somewhere before I've always had a reason, and really that's all the commitment anyone should expect right off the bat.
[/b] You can stay as long as you want, and as long as you have a valid work visa. No reason why you can't, and i know at least one foreigner buried in Kobe cemetery.p/b]
As time goes by, Japan seems like the right place and probably the one that would most hold me.
I'll probably never be as devoted to the EFL universe as you are -- but that doesn't necessarily make me a worse EFL teacher in the long run.
What universe? Its just a job for gods sake. As a TEFL and teachin professional I belong to a professional teaching organisation, write publications and attend conferences. thats what college teachers do.
You make it sound as though Im addicted to manga or something
For instance, I probably have an writing ability about on par with yours (even in the academic field) despite my age, and that secures some of the credentials needed for one of those four aspects of language that EFL teachers end up teaching, writing.
You have a fairly expansive vocabulary, but you have trouble expressing yourself clearly, you dont speak in plain language that people can understand. Your writing lacks coherence and consistency. Using big words and convoluted sentences to impress people doesnt mean you know how to write well, Need i go on?
Furthermore, since most EFL students DO NOT go on to study EFL, but rather simply English itself, this is a field where one's secondary interests can be of paramount value to the occasional student.
More Greek
Let me give you the only collarary example I can think of at the moment: Computer Programming Teacher. Let's look at two computer programmers:
1) PhD. Computer Programming. Academic publications mainly about how to teach Computer Programming. Has never worked in an industry other than education.
2) MA Computer Programming. Academic publications split between computer programming itself, teaching programming, and programs specifically for architectural planning. Works and consults with archictecture firms from time to time.
what does this have to do with the cost of tea in China?
Now, most students won't care who teaches them programming. Both have advantages. But if there happens to be a student who's interested in architecture and programming, then he's practically found a guru. Likewise, if there's a student who's intereted in programming and teaching programming for teacher 1 -- but just like in EFL, there are probably more type 2 students than type 1. As things probably should be.
Okay? |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:14 am Post subject: |
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Let me give you the only collarary example I can think of at the moment: Computer Programming Teacher. Let's look at two computer programmers:
Before using big words you dont know the meaning or usage of it it would pay to find out how to spell them first
the word is corollary , and to my knowledge is a noun, not an adjective. though I may be wrong here. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 3:30 am Post subject: |
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If I could add a couple of extra pearls of wisdom:
1. being interested in Japan, japanese culture, manga, anime, judo or bonsai does not mean you will necessarily be successful or acculturate to living in Japan. Having fantasies about the wonderful people of the exoticness of bonsai does not pay the rent. I tend to be a little more of a pragmatist, and dont flower my language with 'wannabe' pretensions.
You may be here 6 months, 1 year 10 years- thats up to you. there is no culture meter that says one person is more Japan-acculturated than others based on their interests or fascination with the culture. It all wears pretty thin when you are at a conversation school in a dead end job or at a university teaching a bunch of deadbeats or staring rendundancy in the face. Judo kind of takes a back seat to basic survival and creating a financial niche for yourself. I dont pretend to be a japan-culture nut but I have done OK for myself in this country without putting on airs and graces about how 'Japanese' i have become.
2. Being able to write well does not mean using big words, difficult syntax or dodgy grammar. Some of the best writing is in haiku and sonnets, which has something like 8 syllables per line contained in 5 or 6 lines. If you ca state your ideas succintly, get your message across without sounding elitist, condescending or 'holier than thou' you have done your job. Having a huge vocabulary does not guarantee you can translate that into a paying teaching job here.
3. You have given every excuse and rationale for wanting to come to Japan or not wanting to teach EFL (as though its below you ) except that its the only job here that will pay your way and thats what we are paid to do. IF you dont have what employers want no amount of wishing will change their minds. Students bdont want to learn poetry or writing (unless its useful for passing TOEFL or getting into a foreign university or they have a particular need for developing writing skills. Most Japanese dont need to learn how write essays inEnglish or learn creative writing. What we help them to do is help them to express themsleves better and clean up the mess they are left with when they finish high school. |
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Brooks
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1369
Location: Sagamihara
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 3:47 am Post subject: |
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or in my case the mess some of them are in after they finish junior high school. 
I don`t think I have it that bad at my high school job. The downside is that I get less vaction than teachers who work at universities or junior colleges, but I get a couple bonuses a year, I got a raise, and I don`t have to worry about being pushed out the door because I have stayed for three years. |
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Sheep-Goats
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 5:57 am Post subject: |
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| PAULH wrote: |
If I could add a couple of extra pearls of wisdom:
1. being interested in Japan, japanese culture, manga, anime, judo or bonsai does not mean you will necessarily be successful or acculturate to living in Japan. Having fantasies about the wonderful people of the exoticness of bonsai does not pay the rent.
Have you ever taught somewhere where you didn't care for the culture or the attitude of the people you were teaching? It makes a difference.
2. Being able to write well does not mean using big words, difficult syntax or dodgy grammar. Some of the best writing is in haiku and sonnets, which has something like 8 syllables per line contained in 5 or 6 lines. If you ca state your ideas succintly, get your message across without sounding elitist, condescending or 'holier than thou' you have done your job. Having a huge vocabulary does not guarantee you can translate that into a paying teaching job here.
Good writing also takes work, and is not for publishing on internet forums where I'm simply trying to explain to sceptical people that, no, really, I do want to go to Japan and teach. Furthermore, a sonnet has ten syllables and generally 12 lines (but at least  . A haiku is 5-7-5 and, obviously, three lines. You can waggle on all you want about writing and checking spelling on the interent, but if you're going to make mistakes while critizing mistakes I made in the name of expediency and for the sake of explaing myself (where really no one ought to have to), it takes some legitimacy out of your own claims, sirrah.
3. You have given every excuse and rationale for wanting to come to Japan or not wanting to teach EFL (as though its below you ) except that its the only job here that will pay your way and thats what we are paid to do.
Yes, as I said I was going to, and there's nothing wrong, as far as I know, with "giving every ... rationale". And I mentioned the salary thing. And I never said EFL was beneath me, I said it wasn't of itself an interest of mine.
IF you dont have what employers want no amount of wishing will change their minds. Students bdont want to learn poetry or writing (unless its useful for passing TOEFL or getting into a foreign university or they have a particular need for developing writing skills.
I can't imagine that there could be such a student in Japan. Could you?
Most Japanese dont need to learn how write essays inEnglish or learn creative writing. What we help them to do is help them to express themsleves better and clean up the mess they are left with when they finish high school.
Same story with my Thai students. However, it's also true that some of my students are very interested in how to write essays -- unfortunatly none of them have a level of English where we can start on that
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I don't know why everyone's decided to start getting nasty. Let me put the next part in bold, so that I don't have to type it in this thread ever again:
GOOD WRITING IS NOT FOR THE INTERNET. DEAL WITH IT. |
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Sheep-Goats
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| Gordon wrote: |
Sheep-goats,
I'm not sure what your impression of university teaching is like in Japan, but I think you have the wrong idea. This is not something I'd strive for years for. Yes, the perks are good as Paul alluded too, but the teaching here is disappointing. You teach and then you go home, there is little rewarding about it. If you try to change the way things operate, you're up against thousands of years of history. I'm not saying you can't get a uni job here, but it takes a long time and frankly, I doubt it is worth it. |
Well, if that were the only result of my efforts, then no, it's probably not. But getting a MA in TESOL might qualify me for better money anywhere anyway, and the experience itself wouldn't be a negative one.
Also, if I'm qualified for Japan I'm qualified for probably 98% of the other jobs out there that I'd be interested in. I see the pursuit of a Japanese teaching posistion as a small end of itself, yes, but if things don't work out I can slide fairly easily into something else (or somewhere else) from there -- whereas if I make my goal earning big money in Thailand (or whatever) there's much less room for a change of direction later, should that be necessary or desireable.
It's long term and flexible kind of plan I'm trying to make, I mean. |
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